Intellichem pH 4.04, ORP NEGATIVE 12 incorrect readings

[C.Klages]

What are the lines with the red dots?

Are they the sensor lines?

If yes, it does not follow the diagram.

Which one is intake and which one is return?

Here's a markup of your snippet. My responses to identify lines are in yellow. Let me know if this clears up the confusion.

 

[C.Klages]

What is their explanation for the erratic readings?

Builder gives me a "shrug" and suggests replacing the screen in the flow switch. Sigh. Hence, my coming to some people who might be a bit more helpful. On a plus side, though. I called the Pentair line today in between our messages here, and got a hold of some guy who as able to look up the parts ordered through my builder for my system. He gave me insight that not only was the screen ordered by our pool builder, but also a 'board' for the Intellichem as well. So..., my guess is that my tech saw the odd numbers and just decided that he would try the board if it didn't sort itself out with the screen. Kind of a "hit or miss, let's replace all the parts one by one" approach. Pool builder tech never mentioned ordering the board to me, so that was quite surprising. Since the numbers are so far off, I'm thinking that the board or where the cables meet the board are the problem. What do you think?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Sorry to crash in (I haven’t read every post carefully) but is your IntelliChlor routed through your IntelliChem? I think it is and, if so, you may want to open up the IntelliChem controller and check the surge board. It could be burned out.

Your probe readings look like the kind of readings one would get if the electronics saw and open connection or a shorted connection rather than a functioning probe.

 

[C.Klages]

Sorry to crash in (I haven’t read every post carefully) but is your IntelliChlor routed through your IntelliChem? I think it is and, if so, you may want to open up the IntelliChem controller and check the surge board. It could be burned out.

Your probe readings look like the kind of readings one would get if the electronics saw and open connection or a shorted connection rather than a functioning probe.

Matt, that is correct. And that is definitely worth checking! Thanks.

 

[JamesW]

I would open the system and check the boards for any sort of damage and see if the probes are wired to the correct terminals.

 

[C.Klages]

I would open the system and check the boards for any sort of damage and see if the probes are wired to the correct terminals.

Heres a picture of it opened. Everything appears to be connected properly, and no visible scorch marks. However, I did notice a bakelite smell when I opened it. Now, there's always a bakelite smell when boards are new and the box had been closed up. So, it might just be that. OR, it might be that something burnt/shorted out and gave off that symptomatic smell of when bakelite overheats. I'm going to vote for the latter. Thoughts?

 

[mgtfp]

Solder around R1 looks a bit dark. Could be just a shadow, but might be worth a closer look.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I am unfamiliar with the IntelliChem layout but I think you need to power it down and look behind the PCBs. They are stacked and I’d look specifically at where the IC-XX is routed into the system boards.

@ogdento - any tips on where to look?

 

[JamesW]

I would pull the boards and examine both sides for any damage.

Maybe redo the wire connections to the probes.

Make sure that the transformer is wired correctly.

The pink connectors look suspicious.

 

[C.Klages]

UPDATE!! When I posted this last picture above, and looked at it on the desktop computer, I saw that the connectors to the board that were labeled pH and ORP were correctly hooked up. But, they also had colored tape on them!--blue for pH, and red for ORP. I said that's not what the colors are on the top of the probes! So carefully tracing these wires through the back of the box, down to the probes, I found that the tech had incorrectly put the blue probe cap on the ORP and the red probe cap on the pH!! He must have done this a month ago when the ORP readings went negative!! When I shut off the system, and swapped the probe caps to blue for pH and red for ORP, they worked perfectly. I don't know how I missed that point earlier.
What I think happened, is that a month ago, when the tech was thinking he was swapping out the pH probe, he actually replaced the ORP probe with a pH probe, so I would have had two pH probes, one of which was trying to read pH as ORP, and giving me the negative ORP readings while the pH readings remained correct. Then when he came and replaced them yesterday, he looked at the pH probe that he had previously put in (which was in the ORP slot with a red cap) and replaced it with another pH probe, then took the other probe he had which was an ORP probe and put it into the other spot without looking closely at it. So now he had a pH probe where there originally had been an ORP probe, and an ORP probe where there had originally been a pH probe. So now blue was on red and red was on blue (in a nutshell). I took a look at an old photo of the probe caps when the system was working properly last August (see attached pics), and the color coding of the caps is correct-blue on the left and on a pH probe, and red on the right on the ORP probe, and giving accurate readings.
Problem solved.....I think
I'll check on it tomorrow again to be sure it holds and touch base with you all again.
THANK YOU to everyone who took the time to give me good feedback as to what to look for, what their thoughts were and to also help me realize upon opening the box a second time that the color coding was different than that on the probe covers!! I am extremely grateful and thank you all for being here for me!! XOXO. Below are the old photos and also the newest photo with correct readings!!!

 

[ajw22]

Thanks for the update. Your problem was added to the Wiki in case anyone swaps probes in the future...

Pentair IntelliChem - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[mgtfp]

UPDATE!! When I posted this last picture above, and looked at it on the desktop computer, I saw that the connectors to the board that were labeled pH and ORP were correctly hooked up. But, they also had colored tape on them!--blue for pH, and red for ORP. I said that's not what the colors are on the top of the probes! So carefully tracing these wires through the back of the box, down to the probes, I found that the tech had incorrectly put the blue probe cap on the ORP and the red probe cap on the pH!! He must have done this a month ago when the ORP readings went negative!! When I shut off the system, and swapped the probe caps to blue for pH and red for ORP, they worked perfectly. I don't know how I missed that point earlier.
What I think happened, is that a month ago, when the tech was thinking he was swapping out the pH probe, he actually replaced the ORP probe with a pH probe, so I would have had two pH probes, one of which was trying to read pH as ORP, and giving me the negative ORP readings while the pH readings remained correct. Then when he came and replaced them yesterday, he looked at the pH probe that he had previously put in (which was in the ORP slot with a red cap) and replaced it with another pH probe, then took the other probe he had which was an ORP probe and put it into the other spot without looking closely at it. So now he had a pH probe where there originally had been an ORP probe, and an ORP probe where there had originally been a pH probe. So now blue was on red and red was on blue (in a nutshell). I took a look at an old photo of the probe caps when the system was working properly last August (see attached pics), and the color coding of the caps is correct-blue on the left and on a pH probe, and red on the right on the ORP probe, and giving accurate readings.
Problem solved.....I think
I'll check on it tomorrow again to be sure it holds and touch base with you all again.
THANK YOU to everyone who took the time to give me good feedback as to what to look for, what their thoughts were and to also help me realize upon opening the box a second time that the color coding was different than that on the probe covers!! I am extremely grateful and thank you all for being here for me!! XOXO. Below are the old photos and also the newest photo with correct readings!!!

Awesome!

And so much for this:

Builder gives me a "shrug" and suggests replacing the screen in the flow switch.

"Wasn't me, I didn't do it..."

 

[JamesW]

They ran the 'test' cycle on them, and said all is good and left.

It's bad enough that they created the problem in the first place, but then they lied about it being fixed and working correctly.

Now, you just need to figure out how to keep them away from your equipment. LOL.

Technically, you're now more qualified than the service "technicians".

Maybe Pentair will refer new warranty services to you instead of the builder.

 

[dradam]

Sorry to hear you are having any trouble. I am perhaps one of the few fans of the intellichem system.
It is unlikely the probes as long as they are the correct probes and recently manufactured .
It may be worth trying to clean them as it says in the manual.
Bad probe CABLES can sometimes give faulty readings this has happened to me. They are easy to replace.
Be sure your CYA is very low. it messes with orp.
If all else fails you may want to try replacing the intellichlor motherboard. It as an easy ( but not cheap) swap.

Hope this helps.

Ah never mind sound like you fixed it. !!

 

[C.Klages]

Just wanted to let everyone know that the readings have held steadily correct since we swapped the probe caps. Thanks again, everyone!! We're very grateful to all your input to help us resolve this odd problem.

 

[JamesW]

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[JoyfulNoise]

Just wanted to let everyone know that the readings have held steadily correct since we swapped the probe caps. Thanks again, everyone!! We're very grateful to all your input to help us resolve this odd problem.

Glad it worked out. Do keep an eye on the surge board in the iChem controller though as it is the Achilles Heel of Pentair’s dosing systems. Since you let ORP control the SWG (I am assuming that’s how you do it), then when the iChem calls for sanitizer it turns on the IC at 100% output. Electrolysis cells can have huge in-rush currents and when they are operated in a sustained fashion the amount of current into each cell plate is pretty large. All of the current comes from the IC transformer in the panel which is then routed through the iChem controller. In doing so it is absolutely necessary that every wire and connector is capable of handling the I²R heating. Unfortunately, many have found out the hard way that Pentair did not a good job designing that aspect of it and we often see posts about blown out surge board connectors. I believe @Dirk has posted a few images and comments on how to repair it when it happens but I don’t know if there’s much to do in a preventative sense.

 

[Dirk]

Glad it worked out. Do keep an eye on the surge board in the iChem controller though as it is the Achilles Heel of Pentair’s dosing systems. Since you let ORP control the SWG (I am assuming that’s how you do it), then when the iChem calls for sanitizer it turns on the IC at 100% output. Electrolysis cells can have huge in-rush currents and when they are operated in a sustained fashion the amount of current into each cell plate is pretty large. All of the current comes from the IC transformer in the panel which is then routed through the iChem controller. In doing so it is absolutely necessary that every wire and connector is capable of handling the I²R heating. Unfortunately, many have found out the hard way that Pentair did not a good job designing that aspect of it and we often see posts about blown out surge board connectors. I believe @Dirk has posted a few images and comments on how to repair it when it happens but I don’t know if there’s much to do in a preventative sense.

This is what Matt is referring to, and it does include a preemptive solution. I wouldn't recommend using any of the "fixes" until the warranty has expired. Let Pentair replace things until then.

The fix is meant for the circuit board inside an IntellipH controller. I can't speak to how or if it would apply to an IntelliChem, though I could help you explore that, if you want to know more about it and how it does what it does.

IC60 & IntelliPH no longer working (5 months old) - Input?

 

[scottts]

We have an Intellichem that is hooked up to an IC 40 SWCG, and a Muriatic Acid tank. We also have a DelOzone and Parmount UV2 sterilizer in-line so we can keep the Chlorine levels lower than the standard 3.0+. We test with a Taylor K2006C with salt testing.
Taylor test real measurements:
FC=1.0, CC=0, pH=7.6, TA=89, CH=260, CYA=30, Salt=3400, temp=76
Intellichem inaccurate measurements:
pH=4.04, ORP= -12, SALT=3450
Our Intellichem now gives really bad readings. It used to read normally, until our Pool Builder replaced the pH sensor when the acid tank kept adding acid even when the pool was off. (Turns out that the flow/float switch for some reason keeps sticking). After he replaced the pH sensor about a month ago, the ORP sensor started reading lower and lower ORP numbers, until it got to NEGATIVE 12!!! Yes!! You read that right--a NEGATIVE ORP. We called them back, they said let's disconnect the SWCG from the system till we get a new ORP sensor and put it in. So, now a month later, they come and replace both the ORP and the pH sensors with new ones. They ran the 'test' cycle on them, and said all is good and left. Looking at the readings 30 minutes after they left, the pH was reading 4.04, and the ORP was negative 1. I was going to clean the filters (cartridge) anyway, so I shut off the system, cleaned the filters and started it all up again thinking that a hard restart might bump it into acting properly. Not so lucky. The pH is continuously reading 4.04 (setpoint is at 7.3), and the ORP was NEGATIVE 9 (setpoint is at 660). Now, about 5 hours later, the ORP is NEGATIVE 12 again. Deja vu all over, but now with the added "feature" of an extremely wrong 4.04 pH when it's actually 7.6. These were brand new sensors--I saw him unpack them from the box, and they even still had the liquid with the little yellow sponge in the screw on probe cover to ensure they stayed wet during shipping. This doesn't make sense. Does anyone have any idea as to why I would be getting a NEGATIVE ORP reading (especially when we have 1.0 chlorine and also have the ozone and UV running as normal which should also raise the ORP, and why the pH reading is now also way off. We are totally perplexed!!! Thanks, Carolyn.
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Fellow intellichem user here, for about 3 years. Despite all the negative comments about intellichem, fact is it does work well when maintained properly which includes keeping CYA at about 15 for ORP to work properly. The downside is keeping CYA at this kevel works the SWG harder but if your monitoring a pool remotely then it can be worth it for sure. I've been able to go weeks without servicing a remote pool I'm responsible for thanks to intellichem/intellicenter. I've never had an algae breakout or any water issue. I just test the water every few weeks to make sure everything is good.

I have had one recurring problem that might relate to your situation. I've had to replace the probe cables twice due to water entry during heavy rains. The cable seals around the BNCs just do not hold up in the AZ sun anyway and eventually leak causing all manner of inaccurate readings (low pH was definitely one symptom. I've since installed a very sophisticated plastic bag with a zip tie over the tops of the probes to keep water out and I have no problems now.

Since you indicate the system was a delight for the first year it obviously can and has previously worked. If its not the probe cables then its most likely the intellichem is damaged, perhaps by an electrical transient that fried the sensitive probe inputs, and needs repaired or replaced.

You might also try disabling the ozone and UV to see what happens just for knowledge sake.

EDIT - Sorry I missed fact that this had been resolved. Completely missed the second and third page of this thread.

 

[Dirk]

Not that anyone asked...

This is certainly not the fan site for IntelliChem, ozone or UV systems. It's not the promise we don't like so much as the reality. I've never owned any of them, so my "observations" are just based on what I've read here and some common sense logic. So, IMO:

Each system has the same inherent problem, they're just not all that necessary, and you're adding expensive equipment that, at best, requires regular maintenance and at worst requires expensive repair or replacement. I'm not saying they don't work, for what they do, I'm just questioning if they're worth the trouble. I'm the automation nut-ball here at TFP (or at least one of them) and if I thought any of those systems could save me five minutes of work, I'd own them.

I won't get into the long-winded explanation of why ozone and uv are not necessary for an outdoor residential pool (unless you ask). Yes, they sanitize water, but you cannot run either without also dosing your pool with chlorine. So what is the point? And no, neither really allows you to use less chlorine, not to the extent that the average person would notice or be affected by it. Two down.

And like any chemical automation system, you have to monitor the IntelliChem system and check on it, and test the water periodically to make sure it is working. And there's the rub. What span of time are you willing to allow your system to run unchecked? A day? A week? Two? A month? All summer? The correct answer is a week. More than that and you are risking, at any point, your water becoming unsafe for the people that use it. A pool can become unsafe for swimming long before it turns green (green isn't even unsafe). So if you have to test every week, or even two, to be sure your pool is OK, what really is the point of an IntelliChem?

I run a Pentair IntelliChlor and IntellipH. I test once a week to make sure they are OK. That takes me 5 minutes a week. I don't touch chemicals all swim season, except for topping off my IntellipH acid reservoir a few times, and only then at my convenience, not when the pool demands it. My water is crystal clear and as safe as it can possibly be. I don't have to worry about a fussy orp system, or probes, or calibration or uv or ozone expendables. I do lose my IntelliChlor for a few months in the winter, but so does an IntelliChem. My system doses acid year round, but that is due to a customization I performed on my IntellipH. I'm guessing an IntelliChem loses acid dosing in the winter when it's IntelliChlor stops working (but I'm not sure of that). If I owned an IntelliChem, I'd still test once a week and that'd still take about 5 minutes.

In other words, I have the bare necessary equipment required to achieve chemical automation and perfect water, that I only have to check on once a week and could easily go two weeks if I wanted to (like for an extended trip away).

Anywho, I'm not slamming the equipment you've chosen, after all, who among us would not want a pool they never have to maintain!? I'm only pointing out no such thing exists (even if you use a pool guy!). And I'm just suggesting that if or when you someday tire of dealing with some of your equipment, you can safely get rid of most of it, the worst of it, without giving up any of the convenience, or water quality, you currently enjoy.