installing new returns in gunite pool

[repairman]

Hi,
What's the best way to install returns in an IG gunite pool? I'm redoing the plumbing in a 60's era pool and I'm adding at least 4 returns, maybe 7, depending on if I tie into the two old 1 1/2" copper returns. I want to have good circulation in a pool running 24/7 at low speed.

Do I need a core drill or not? What about drilling holes around the circumference and chipping it out? If I'm using a core drill and running 2" pipe do I cut a 2" hole? How does the core drill anchor to the pool wall? If it's bolted in how is that done and how do you fix those holes? How do you seal the hole? I want directional fittings where should the end of the pipe be to the pool wall, etc.

If you tell me to use 2 part epoxy is that something like AB putty?

Obviously I'll appreciate any advice from your experience.
Thanks,
Repairman

 

[Just-a-PB]

I wouldn't reuse the copper if you don't have to.
For the return pipe you would use 1 1/2" PVC, so a 2" hole works well. A core drill bit works well.
Can have a company come do it, they will know how to mount it to drill. Or just do it by hand. Rent a Hilti and core bit and drill it out.
On the inside you will chip out 1 1/2" around the pipe to a depth of 1". Install a eyeball fitting that has built in waterstops. We use a hydraulic cement and fill around the pipe on the the inside using a grout bag, you can squirt it in pretty far, and flush it out to the gunite.
Then do the same on the outside. It expands as it drys and will hold the pipe in just fine.
Then plaster or pebble around it depending on your interior finish.

 

[repairman]

Thanks Just-a-PB,
By "just do it by hand" do you mean core drill it just holding the drill, not anchoring it? That seems doable. What I saw on Youtube was anchored, used water, and took 30-45 minutes. Can you do it without water and does it take that long through an old gunite pool? I've sawed concrete before but not core drilled it.
You said don't use the copper if possible, but I have two original 1 1/2" copper returns, that if I use them, would save me from installing those 2 PVC returns (drilling, cementing, etc.). I could tie into them with the PVC on the outside of the pool and if I could find a way to add directional fittings on the pool side it would work. So why not use the copper? I can see it would be trouble to chip out around the beveled outlet to expose enough copper pipe to solder a threaded fitting on it. Is there a way to glue or epoxy a directional fitting (eyeball, or I heard of a fitting that is not a round eyeball but more a rectangular outlet) directly to the wall around the pipe so I don't have to chip out around it, etc?
I was planning on using 2" pvc. When you said I would use 1 1/2' PVC returns, is that because it's normal to bring your pipe down to that size through the wall or what?
Thanks,
Repairman

 

[repairman]

I looked again and the copper pipe returns are not recessed at all, just flush with pool wall with no fittings.

 

[ntobik]

We had our returns replaced last year on a concrete pool. The PB had to drill new holes, they used a core drill with water. It was anchored. Your time estimate from YouTube sounds about right, 30m per return.

 

[Just-a-PB]

Or knock out the copper and put pvc in its place
Yes, hand holding a large roto hammer and drilling it.
We do that quite often, but it is a lot of work.
Hiring a Concrete Cutting/coring company will make short work of that.
They generally drill holes and mount the rig to the wall as they don't like to work that hard. Plus you can break a wrist if you are not careful, or hit rebar, all bad things doing it yourself.
Use 2" for your return loop, then reduce to 1 1/2" to go into the pool. Most fittings (eyeballs) are designed for this.
Lots of things can cause the copper to oxidize, putting copper ions in the water that can cause copper stains down the line. Just not worth it if you are redoing the rest of it.

 

[lasvegaspools]

Rotohammer with a 2 in bit will work fine. Usually takes about 10 to 15 min per hole if you do not hit rebar.

Sent from my SGP561 using Tapatalk

 

[repairman]

In the Industry,
Thanks for all the info. What's the best way to get the copper pipe out? Rotohammer with a 2" bit is for the new return holes without the existing pipe, correct?
Where would you place your returns on a 15 x 35 rectangular 60's era gunite/plaster pool, 8 ft deep - 3 ft shallow, one skimmer 3/4 down one wall?
Repairman

 

[repairman]

In the industry,
Did you mean a Hilti compression hammer w a core bit? I didn't know you could use a compression hammer w a core bit.
Thanks,
Repairman

 

[BigEinAZ]

Rotary Hammers use a drill bit (like a star drill). Core bits are used in a standard drill motor (no hammer action) and need water cooling. Core bits will cut through rebar, hammer drills will not. You'll want to mount a core drill for best effect. Hammer drills are free-hand.

Does that help?

 

[repairman]

So if you are using a rotary hammer and hit rebar you move the hole over some?
Yes that helps.
Thanks,
Repairman

 

[lasvegaspools]

Exactly, hit rebar move over a bit. Tools should be available for rent less than $100 for the day.

Sent from my SGP561 using Tapatalk

 

[BigEinAZ]

Always wear hearing protection and safety glasses!!

 

[repairman]

Thanks BigEinAZ

 

[repairman]

Just-a-PB,
Thank you for answering my question about installing returns. You said chip out to a depth of 1" but the glued slip-on to female threads adapter that goes on the pipe is about 2 1/2" long. My holes are just 2" diameter and I have to chip out the hole some just to get the adapter in. No problem there, but I was on the phone with a representative at Aquastar and told him I wanted a water stop and an eyeball fitting I could screw off and change if I wanted. He said slide a 3" diam. water stop on the pipe first, then glue the threaded adapter flush with the wall, then screw on the eyeball (w flange). So if I do that I have to chip in quite a bit more.
I'm thinking the difference between what you said and the above method is because I wanted to be able to screw the eyeball part off and on and have it interchangeable. Is that correct or is there an easier way to do what I want?
Thanks again,
Repairman

 

[mas985]

7 returns for that size pool seems a bit excessive. I have 4 in my pool and could easily get away with just two. You really don't need much for circulation. Take a look at these videos:

Circulation Dye Test

 

[repairman]

Mark,
Yeh, I believe you. I've heard different things from different people. It's done now. I'll have a lot of fun turning my pump on high and seeing if I can get a vortex going! It can double as one of those swim against the current pools?-) Maybe it will be like a waterpark ride and I can charge admission.

 

[mas985]

Actually the more returns you, the less flow there is per return.

 

[JamesW]

I would suggest 2 sets of returns going from the pad to the pool. That way, if you ever got a leak on one set, you could close it off and run on the extra set until you could get the leak fixed. Running a line for a pressure cleaner is a nice addition even if you're not going to do a pressure side cleaner. It gives you the option and it can be a backup in case both sets of returns leak.

Ideally, no pvc should ever fail within 40 years but it can happen.

 

[xyz]

I drilled a 2" hole in my pool for an auto fill. Used a regular drill, and another guy to hold a hose on it. Diamond core drill. Took 15 min. Not easy, but not hard. The diamond does the cutting pretty well.