Help Me Build - All Season Pool / Greenhouse for Topicals

[JRMoody]

After eight months of planning, drawing, and silently lurking in every Under Construction post, I am ready to post my own project and tap into the hive mind that is TFP!

Goal: Owner/Build 35x17 concrete pool surrounded by a convertible enclosure. Basically, I want a pool with a part-time greenhouse. The pool should be deep enough to dive in and long enough for laps. The growing portion of the enclosure should have enough space to grow some small tropical trees (mangos, papayas, and guavas). In coastal Georgia, we only receive a few days below freezing a year. I don't think we would use a spa very much but I do like the idea of a quasi-spa - seating in the pool with spa-like returns.

Experience: None, at least with building a pool. I did O/B my house and learned how to frame, plumb, wire, etc. It took about 2 years but we paid half the cost of the lowest bid we received. I think I can build a pool and enclosure for half the cost and twice the headache.

Estimated Cost: $50K. Let’s see how close I can get.

Estimated Build Time: 2 years

Enclosure and Pool Sketch: 35' x 17' Pool (22K gal.) within a 47' x30' enclosure.



Depth Profile from Top of Coping to Pool Bottom:


If you've made it this far, thank you! Other than that cost estimate, what in my plan isn't possible? What needs to be changed? Any tips that you wish you knew when building a pool or enclosure? I'll post some rough plumbing and electrical plans, a partial equipment list, and site pictures in a bit. Thank you all again for a great resource!

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Wow....way cool ideas! I love the depth (diving!!) of the pool.
The only potential problem I see is wondering if the fruit trees lose leaves? Leaves in a pool can stain and be a nuisance.
Have you chosen equipment, or at least types of equipment yet?

Looking forward to following along with your build

Welcome to Trouble Free Pool.

Maddie

 

[JRMoody]

Site Information:
Our house sits on 20-ish wooded acres. Here is a picture of the back yard as taken from the house. This view is looking west and the picture was taken on the winter solstice so that I could see tree shadows. The enclosure/pool will be oriented so that double doors (right side of the plan, in the picture above) is nearest to the house.





And here is the pool enclosure in relation to the house. It bothers me that the enclosure is longer than the house but my wife says that it won't matter as the house hides it. The pool will probably sit a bit further to the right and back from the house. I've thought about widening the back porch stairs as well to line up with the double doors. Any thoughts on how to make the superstructure flow from the house?

 

[JRMoody]

Wow....way cool ideas! I love the depth (diving!!) of the pool.
The only potential problem I see is wondering if the fruit trees lose leaves? Leaves in a pool can stain and be a nuisance.
Have you chosen equipment, or at least types of equipment yet?

Looking forward to following along with your build

Welcome to Trouble Free Pool.

Maddie

Thank you and thank you for following! I think most topicals, at least the ones that I grow in pots, lose leaves over the course of a year instead of a mass at once. Like you said, that steady drop might be a nuisance. I'll probably just toss them back on the tree base and use them as a bit of extra mulch. That is what I do with my bananas right now.



For the equipment list, I know that I want:

• Clean & Clear Plus 520 sq ft (160332) - already bought for $1200. So 48.8 remains in the budget.
• Intelliflo 3 VSF 3.0HP (011075)
• Intellichlor IC60 or IC40
• Lots of Jandy Neverlube valves

I think that I want:

• (5) Microbrite Lights (620424)
• Intellicenter automation (having a hard time with the price of this vs what I understand to be the benefits)
• Pentair Prowler 930w robot

Any equipment must haves? I plan to install a heater and chiller bypass on the pad.

 

[JRMoody]

Electrical and Plumbing Plans

Here is the rough path that plumbing and electrical will take.



There are 5 regular returns, 4 returns in the Quasi-Spa bench (in a two over-two pattern) and 2 sheer descents. If I home-run all of these, that is a ton of pipes coming up at the pad. Any way to reduce this? Do I have too many returns?

On the suction side, there is the main drain and two skimmers (one in the top left - third line from the left; the other is in the middle of the far right side of the pool). Our wind comes mainly from the SE/SSE at about 10MPH. We have a near-constant breeze on the coast. But how much does wind matter when a house sits directly east of the pool and the pool is enclosed by screen?

For reference, here are wind roses for our area:

Summer Only


All-Year



Finally, here is the plumbing diagram I drew. Still working on the electrical.



Thank you all for looking at these and sorry for blowing you up with pictures!

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Have you checked to see which Heat pumps also reverse to be chillers??
Five returns is a lot.
Anode need is debatable?
Look into Pentair for package deal that includes automation, salt system, pump... @Jimrahbe is my Pentair guru.

Maddie

 

[Jimrahbe]

JR,

If you decide to get the IntelliCenter automation, then you want one that comes in a 'bundle'.. IntelliCenter with built-in salt cell power center and an IC40 or 60. I see you have three actuators in your plumbing diagram, and that is a minor issue. The standard automation system has the ability to move 4 valves, but two of them can only be used to select between the Pool and Spa mode. Since you don't have a spa, you only need the Pool only system. But, if you get the Pool and Spa version it comes two actuators and you can use the spa mode to turn your 3rd actuator. Or.. you will have to buy a valve extender board so that you will the ability to have more than 2 user programable actuators.

Here is a good site...

IntelliCenter Complete Systems

Before you buy the automation you really need to figure out how you want the pool to work. As an example.. In your diagram you cannot have the spa jets and the waterfalls working at the same time. Not saying that you would ever want to do that, but once your pool is built that kind of stuff is hard to fix, so just make sure you know how you wish the pool to work and then plumb it to make it work that way, and buy an automation system that will do what you want.
(Hope that makes sense..)

Lights.. For every light, or group of lights, that you want to independently control, you will need a relay and transformer. If you want all your lights to come on at the same time and be the same color, then you only need one relay and one transformer. The key here is that you need to buy a system that will support the number of lights you have, plus anything else you need to turn on and off using a relay. As an example.. an iPS5, has a Pump/Filter relay and 4 aux relays. An iPS8 has 1 Pump/Filter relay and 7 Aux relays, etc.

Just ping me if you have any questions..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[wireform]

I know your one handy guy but a gunnite pool is a one time shot. You better know what your in for...

 

[JRMoody]

Before you buy the automation you really need to figure out how you want the pool to work. As an example.. In your diagram you cannot have the spa jets and the waterfalls working at the same time. Not saying that you would ever want to do that, but once your pool is built that kind of stuff is hard to fix, so just make sure you know how you wish the pool to work and then plumb it to make it work that way, and buy an automation system that will do what you want.
(Hope that makes sense..)

Lights.. For every light, or group of lights, that you want to independently control, you will need a relay and transformer. If you want all your lights to come on at the same time and be the same color, then you only need one relay and one transformer. The key here is that you need to buy a system that will support the number of lights you have, plus anything else you need to turn on and off using a relay. As an example.. an iPS5, has a Pump/Filter relay and 4 aux relays. An iPS8 has 1 Pump/Filter relay and 7 Aux relays, etc.

I don't fully understand why the waterfalls would not work with the bench jets on. Couldn't the bench jets diverter be set to something like 90% open and the remaining water flow to the next diverter that is fully open to the waterfalls? If not, how would I need to change my diagram?

And if I wanted three light groups (stair lights, spa bench light, and remaining two middle lights), the iPS5 system would work with a spare relay? I would probably go with the iPS8 or iPS10 but I want to make sure that I understand that logic.

This is some great information! Thank you again!

 

[JRMoody]

I know your one handy guy but a gunnite pool is a one time shot. You better know what your in for...

I do plan on sub-contracting out the rebar, concrete, and the pool finish (the wife is in love with Pebblesheen - Turtle Bay but she hasn't seen/felt it in person). I may end up with an expensive pond though, we'll see.

 

[Jimrahbe]

JR,

Automated valves only have two positions. So you can't have closed, open all the way, and then open half way. While it is true that you can adjust the stops anywhere want, you still only have two positions.. All the way one way or all the way the other. Also the more stuff you have running at the same time, the more water volume you will need. Waterfalls and 5 spa jets will need a lot of water flow..

If you want 3 light groups, then you would need three Aux relays, plus the Pump/Filter relay, leaving you with one spare. But what else do you plan for the future? Landscape lights, a light over your equipment pad, a water fill line, god knows what else you may need a relay for..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

JR,

Not sure I would change anything, I was just trying to make a point about knowing what you want ahead of time. Your plumbing diagram shows your Bench Jets, Waterfalls and Pool returns, more of less in 'series'. "If" you wanted to have the ability to have them all on at the same time, you would need to plumb them in parallel. In parallel, each branch would have a 2-way valve.. Turing all three valves on, would allow all three to get water. But.. turning all three off would dead-head your pump, which would not be a good thing.

Again, I'm not telling you how you need to plumb the pool, I'm just saying it is best if you can envision how you want the pool to work and then plumb it that way..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[flynwill]

Not being able to comfortably walk the entire perimeter of a pool can make it a real pain for routine things like brushing of fishing out the leaves. Looks like you currently only have the 1' coping or maybe a few inches more across the back side which is too narrow to walk (unless you are a gymnast). I suggest you consider either making the enclosure a couple of feet wider in that direction or the pool a bit smaller.

This looks like a very cool project. I'll be very curious to see how you convert the enclosure from screened cage to greenhouse, are you planning removable poly-carbonate panels?

 

[JRMoody]

Your plumbing diagram shows your Bench Jets, Waterfalls and Pool returns, more of less in 'series'. "If" you wanted to have the ability to have them all on at the same time, you would need to plumb them in parallel. In parallel, each branch would have a 2-way valve.. Turing all three valves on, would allow all three to get water. But.. turning all three off would dead-head your pump, which would not be a good thing.

You said this earlier but it just clicked in for me. The Pool Returns and Bench Jets should be treated as a pool/spa mode. I reworked the plumbing diagram a bit to reflect that on/off state. After reading the Chiller manual, I removed the chiller line/bypass. It looks easy enough to add in later if I wanted it.

I think I also have enough flow for the waterfalls (36GPM X 2 = 72GPM) + the quasi-spa jets (15GPM x 4 =60GPM). Writing out my math assumptions in case I am wrong about something.

 

[JRMoody]

Not being able to comfortably walk the entire perimeter of a pool can make it a real pain for routine things like brushing of fishing out the leaves. Looks like you currently only have the 1' coping or maybe a few inches more across the back side which is too narrow to walk (unless you are a gymnast). I suggest you consider either making the enclosure a couple of feet wider in that direction or the pool a bit smaller.

This looks like a very cool project. I'll be very curious to see how you convert the enclosure from screened cage to greenhouse, are you planning removable poly-carbonate panels?

I am hopeful that the screen + garden section being on the opposite side will help keep that southern wall from being too much of a pain. I had another design that jutted the pool against the shallow entrance so that the enclosure wasn't so long. The lack of symmetry bothered me though.

I am thinking of making the roof poly-carbonate or something similar. For the walls, I envision almost a track system in front of the screen that would allow panels to slide into them. I need to figure that out more concretely. Some years, they would not even need to be attached. But I would probably put 80% of them in after Thanksgiving and pull them out after Valentine's. Let me know if you have any ideas for that system!

 

[Jimrahbe]

JR,

You can also remove the 'anode' which will do nothing... at all. Just a total waste of money.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JRMoody]

I knew that we had a high water table in coastal GA and that I would need to plan for that. But I wanted to dig into that a bit more first. So I dug. A bit before 4' down, the dirt gets wet. After letting the hole sit over night, there is a small puddle in there. My goal is to schedule a dig in mid/late Nov. Not sure which year, yet.

I did find some cool pottery shards below 2'. Here is a partial emblem on one of them:

 

[RoyR]

I don’t know why you guys are suggesting to remove the anode….it protects the heater. it’s also very easy to maintain / replace. Mine is definitely doing something, and my pH is controlled….

Sacrificial Zinc Anode | Sacrificial Anode for Salt Water Installation

A sacrificial zinc anode for salt water pools will help protect metal in your salt water pool from corrosion and other damage.

www.saltwaterpoolandspa.com

But, I also have a boat and will definitely not operate that without the anodes…

 

[Ahultin]

Cool project!
I don't see it on your plumbing diagram so I'll ask, did you plan for an air line to the "spa" jets? If so will it be passive or have a blower? If a blower, this would need an additional relay.
For the intellicenter, I'd suggest at least the i8ps (based on you treating the secondary "spa" returns as a spa). The price difference between the i8 with 8 relays and the i5 with 5 is ~$300 but if you get the i5 and find you want to upgrade, it ~$1000. The difference between the i8 and i10 tends to be closer to ~$100. I "needed" the i5 but went with the i10. In the year that we have had the pool I added landscape lights (1 relay), a controlled outlet for the pool robot (1 relay), a controlled equipment light (1 relay) , a controlled autofill valve (1 relay), fire bowls (in progress, 1 relay). I beleive I am down to 1 spare lol.

 

[JRMoody]

Thank you! I was planning a passive air, but I have not worked out whether to give each return a dedicated feed, shared feed between the two in each seat, or all four having a shared feed.

You have a very nice pool and I like your fire bowl with planters idea.

Why did you go with (2) 100w and (1) 300w transformers for your lights? Also, can you tell me more about your controlled outlet for the pool robot and controlled autofill valve?

Thanks!