Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc?

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Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

No although the port furthest from the pool would probably be easier to plumb and easier to inspect for leaks.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Just dug up the return connections. This looks promising, as it could allow for a 2" connection there? That looks like a barbed connection (pulling out) threaded into a 2" to 1 1/2" adapter? Also, that looks like some old spa pipe in there as a patch?
 

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Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Made some discoveries today: There doesn't seem to be very much in the way of holding up the steel wall of the pool in the ground that I can see, which makes me even more worried about digging causing a wall collapse. This makes me a lot less likely to want to do the trenching and pipe work, especially considering how far down I'd have to dig to get the trench level from the pool to the pad. At this point, I think we are leaning toward letting the PB run 2" poly and have them dig the trench, in case something goes wrong, it's not our (specifically my) fault. As confident as we are that I could run whatever piping we'd use, having a PB guarantee/warranty means something to my wife.

Second fun thing is that there was a miscommunication (or outright error) in that we could use a 100 pound propane tank to fuel the 266k BTU heater we wanted to put in. It appears as if even a 100 gallon tank won't be sufficient? Even if one or two 100 gallon tanks will work, the service call fees to refill them will cost us a fortune! Argh!!!
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Getting out ducks in a row now with all the quotes needed (gas line stub to outside, concrete pad, & electrical outdoor sub-panel), so we're hoping to get building soon.

We've resigned ourselves to using PB's 2" poly pipe so that the plumbing has a warranty on it. Not thrilled about it, but what are you going to do. It'll be an improvement over our janky 1.5" poly that has all sorts of pipe repairs done to it.

PB is going to install the TR-60 3" on a 3" platform, so that if we wanted to, we could pull out the TR-60 and drop in a TR-100. They're going to visually verify that everything is OK with our TR-60 before installing it, obviously. I guess that's one benefit to using the 261050 MPV, is that we can swap out filters if the valve is installed at the proper height.

Is there really any difference between the Superflo VS 342000 and 342001? We've spec'ed the 342000, as it look like it might be more efficient.

Made the switch to the Raypak 266A electronic ignition natural gas model, with standard copper elements. I don't really know much about heaters, other than the spec sheets I've looked all seem to indicate this is the correct size for our pool.

Spec'ed either a Pentair 263028 or Jandy 4717 3-way diverter valve for our skimmer & deep wall vac lines. PB wants to install a pair of ball valves, and I'm not ok with that.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Not really, it won't hurt it but it's not required... The vs pumps are just really sensitive to stray voltage like lightning, they basically have a computer in them...

I am using my phone so please excuse any spelling errors and short response. :)
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

The surge protector protects the entire panel circuits depending on where it is installed.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

We were resigned to use PB's 2" poly pipe, until they told us that the warranty was only for 1 year, so long as we use their winterization service (minimum $120). Just received word on that from the PB, as they had never explicitly stated how long their warranty was for.

Back to banging my head against the wall...
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

It also depends on how long that PB is going to be in business too. I wouldn't count on any warranty. He will find a way out of it.

Did you say earlier you were moving the equipment pad? If you are willing to leave it where it is and since you dug up part of the plumbing and assuming the old poly that is in one piece has no leaks, just plumb ridged PVC from the pool fixtures to the old poly, then put a transition at that point and put an irrigation vault I mentioned earlier over the top of the transition piece so you can inspect it every year.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

The spa pipe may not be a repair, but installed purposely to prevent stress at the pvc fitting due to settlement. Mark's idea with the irrigation vault is brilliant, cheap, easy and all the access you'll need to inspect.
 

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Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Pentair changed the electronics and motor between the 342000 and the 342001. The 001 is a dual voltage pump that can run on 110v or 230v. They also added external relay control to the 001 package.
The 000 is a discontinued product.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Because of the heater, we pretty much have to move the pad near the house, as LP looks to be insanely expensive for us to install a 120+ gallon LP tank and have an LP company fill it ($$$ for every service call, plus the cost of the propane). Also, we'd need to spend $2000+ to upgrade the electrical to the shed, so that's another added cost to leaving it as is.

I just hacked off the piece of spa pipe from the return (the line that held up best) and poured a good bit of water in the other end of the pipe at the old pad. Nothing came out where I hacked it off. Maybe I need to push a heck of a lot more, but the way the pipe is run (so we thought) is that it was all downhill from old pad to the return.

PVC through an irrigation box sounds like a really good idea, either way we go with it (we're considering using up some flex PVC at the wall connections, with a large radius which then points to the new pad, rather than using a 90).
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Pool Tool said:
The spa pipe may not be a repair, but installed purposely to prevent stress at the pvc fitting due to settlement.
Click to expand...
I overlooked this detail you mentioned. I have about 15' of black Flex PVC left over from some work last summer. I might just try to use some of this for a stress fitting if we decide to run hard PVC. We're still debating the pro's and con's, yet again, of each type of pipe run.

Pool Tool said:
How do you heat your house, Natural gas propane or electric?
Click to expand...
Natural gas. Just had a new hot water heater and furnace installed last week. I really wish I had asked for them to put a tee in the line in case we wanted to add that gas line. Same guys who did the appliance install are coming back to run the gas pipes for us.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Well supported, hard piped pvc is what I would do. Just compact below the piping near the pool and use sand around the pipes. If you do install any poly to pvc connections just make sure they are accessible via a vault or something to inspect.

Ahh yes, experience that thing you learn right after you need it! It will easy enough for them to put a tee in without much interruption to you and not a lot of time lost. they may have to rebuild a section to increase the pipe size for your heater depending on length anyway. It's coming along.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

We are looking into our options, and are considering running our own poly pipe, as the warranty on the PB's plumbing isn't very compelling. I'd like to run PVC, but we have such a narrow area to work in, that it might be difficult to manage. Flex PVC is pretty darn expensive for the good stuff, as I bought some from Amazon that was difficult to glue & fit together into PVC fittings.

My wife looked around to find 2" poly pipe locally so we can get working soon, and all she could find in-stock is the variety with a yellow stripe. I don't know much other than plain black irrigation isn't good for pools (I think that's what we currently have installed though!), so I don't know what to look for as far as poly pipe specs. Does running heated water change our requirements for poly pipe?
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

When placing PVC in a trench you can put the pipe together outside of the trench then gently lower the completed pipe down in the trench. Having a helper for this makes life easier not only to lay the pipe but for gluing the joints also. I did 140 feet of 3" sch 80 conduit that way it. Do yourself a favor and find a plumbing/builders supply house that will deliver you 20 foot lengths. You can often get 20 foot lengths with preformed ends that eliminate the need for coupling fittings.

If going with poly get a pipe rated for drinking water. It will generally be rated for a higher PSI than irrigation pipe. Try and avoid HD/lowes for the fittings if you can. If you've never made connections in black poly here's a quick primer.

Cut the pipe clean and square.
Slide 2 stainless pipe clamps over pipe
Using a propane torch quickly and gently heat the inside of the pipe. Should only take 2-3 sec
Quickly insert bard fitting into pipe then place hose clamps over barb fitting and tighten
Using heat allows the plastic to form to the barbs for a better seal the plastic will contract as it cools further tightening the squeeze on the barb fitting.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Hmm... Hadn't thought of doing it that way. I've run lots of PVC like that for electrical, the 20' runs with bell ends, but we tended to install them piece by piece in the trench. I was thinking we'd have to connect to the pool wall connections, and keep connecting pipes in the trench until we got to the pad (while trying not to move the pipe and break what's connected at the end). Piecing together the bulk of the runs above ground might be workable, then connect up to the walls and the 90's to the pad plumbing. We have straight runs of 53', 40', and 27' long, so five 20' pieces is all I'd need.

The decision is down to doing this or just having the PB run their poly piping. Still a bit resigned to having the PB do it, so as to save us time and hassle, despite that it could save us $1000 by buying & running the pipe ourselves.
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Tentative build date of June 1st! We've settled on the time & materials, and PB is going to do poly, so that settles that. Since we're digging the trench, I have a question about backfill: there will be 3" of coarse sand laid in the trench we are digging, then another 3-4" on top of the pipes. Do I need to put anything specific on top of that?

For the 4x8 equipment pad, I am building essentially a box into the slope of the side of our house, and am having a debate with my wife about the top layer of fill in. The base will be 4" of sand, then 4" of rocks, so we will have about 4" of large pavers (what my wife wants) or concrete fill (what I at least think we should use). If we do large pavers, I might lay down a rebar grid on top of the rocks, fill in space with sand, and then lay down some smaller pavers in a way to try to make it harder for the large pavers to settle (cave in) over time. Is this too much work to mess with pavers, or should I press to do the concrete?

My wife's main concern is that we won't have the manpower to wheelbarrow in the concrete from a truck, if it's just me. There's also the concern about curing time for a slightly less than 4x8 pad that's about 4-5" thick. Is that much of an issue?
 
Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

You can probably put the excavated dirt back on top of the sand, but what is the final layer - concrete, grass, mulch? You'll want to disturb as little as you can below your sand level to minimize settling. And it's less digging. Just compact the backfill as good as you can. What depth are you digging to?

A 5" x 4' x 8' pad is roughly 13 cubic feet or 0.5 cubic yards. Truck delivery would cost you a small fortune for such a small amount of concrete. Rent an electric concrete mixer. They are on wheels so you can roll it right to your spot then mix and dump right in the pad forms. I think 80 # bags contain right at 0.5 cubic feet, so 30ish bags to mix. Most mixers are 2 cubic ft, but can comfortably fit 2-3 bags and mixes it in a matter of minutes. You'd have to work fast but it would be fine. 5" is pretty thick too. I would target 3-4" and add some 4" steel mesh or rebar. Your sub grade prep will be more important to preventing cracks than the thicker concrete. 4" thick reduces it to 10 cubic feet. Level the sub grade well otherwise you will use a lot more concrete than you think and run short!

Curing time will depend on the weather, but if you prep you site well, i.e. have all the bags of concrete at the pad with the mixer with a hose and a pre-measured, marked water jug you can do it. You can fill the water jug to the line then dump it in the mixer quickly. Mix the concrete with the maximum amount of water per the packaging (but not more) and you'll have sufficient time. One note as the pour the concrete into the form mix it well with whats already in there so you don't form cold joints. A garden hoe or rake will make quick work of that.

It is a little intimidating and better with at least two people but wont be too bad.
 

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