For example I have ran into multiple times on DIY installed heaters. Chlorinators installed to close to the heater which cause corrosion to the heat exchanger. Or Not proper sizing of equipment just couple things.mas985 said:
Big three warranty changes
- Thread starter swimcmp
- Start date
- Status
- May 3, 2007
- 16,974
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
I would still argue that neither of those things should show up in less than a year. Corrosion is a very slow process even with the chlorinator next to the heater and would take well over a year to show up as an issue that the pool owner would notice (i.e. leaky heat ex-changer). Also, we see small filters on large pumps on this forum all the time and they have been operating that way for years without serious problems. Eventually it does cause problems and will likely shorten the life of the filter but from what I have seen, most don't notice this problems until it gets very serious and thus wouldn't make a claim until well after the 1 year period.
Sorry but I still think the probability of claims in the 60 day to 1 year time window is very small. Note I did not say zero. Unfortunately, without manufacture data, it is very difficult to prove either way. Anecdotal evidence is interesting but it really doesn't show the magnitude of the problems and how often claims are made.
Sorry but I still think the probability of claims in the 60 day to 1 year time window is very small. Note I did not say zero. Unfortunately, without manufacture data, it is very difficult to prove either way. Anecdotal evidence is interesting but it really doesn't show the magnitude of the problems and how often claims are made.
The warranty on Pentair and Sta rite for pool heaters in a residential setting is 2 years. I have witnessed first hand a chlorinator too close to a heater and that it back fed into the unit and withing 15 months the heat exchanger was toasted. Sure didn't help that the home owner keep the darn chlorinator filled to the top with tablets. So it does happen.
I have also seen where a gas heater is set and connected right under an operating window which in my area, the unit has to be a minimum of 4 feet from any opening. I have seen heaters in an equipment room or sorts with no venting to the outside. I am sure claims are made a lot and thus part of the reason why they are now wanting to stop any bleeding of funds for covering this.
I have also seen where a gas heater is set and connected right under an operating window which in my area, the unit has to be a minimum of 4 feet from any opening. I have seen heaters in an equipment room or sorts with no venting to the outside. I am sure claims are made a lot and thus part of the reason why they are now wanting to stop any bleeding of funds for covering this.
luna31d said:
This is part of the problem as well. So in Texas you don't need any type of state, county, or city license to do work? Obviously no one is forced to take any classes or training. It's really up to a homeowner to find a trust worthy and insured person to do certain types of work at their house.
Maybe I should move to Texas and build pools if there is no licensing required. Hmmm.......
Once you get away from the northeast and the west coast many places have minimal licensing / inspection requirements and often those that do exist are either protectionist in nature or simple taxation. For example my town requires a building permit to be pulled whenever an outside central air conditioning unit has to be replaced due to some obscure section of code that says you must have a permit anytime a crane may be required, and another section that says anything that weighs over 150 pounds can require a crane regardless if one is used. Even though any other less than 48 hour minor job is exempt from needing a permit. In effect it is a $15 tax that is passed on to the home owner by the air conditioning contractor as a line item on the invoice, of course I live in a state where for many years charged businesses $10 per water heater per year to register them with the state as "boilers", since boilers were defined as any device that heats water in an enclosed tank. Of course by contrast we have no electrical inspectors if one lives outside of city limits. (a state law was passed a few years ago to require local government to set up electrical inspectors state wide, but the law has never been funded, so in effect they don't exist in many places)
Ike
Ike
From what I have Hurd from my reps is you will have a one year warranty if you do it yourself. If a " certified dealer" you get 2-3 years depending on product
- May 3, 2007
- 16,974
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Why would you want to move to a state without licensing? For most professions, having a licensing requirement equals more money.
Looks to me like Pentair is joining Zodiac (Polaris) in a 60 day warranty for equipment installed by someone other than a certified professional. Hayward is currently 1 year. For these three, warranties appear to extended for certified professional installation.
I think this has very little to do with product safety and bad installs by a DIY, this is about supporting price and the trade. If bad installs were the only issue, the manufacturer could refuse to pay for repairs and replacements and charge for warranty service visits for improperly installed equipment. It is easy for an electrical manufacturer to determine the failure when 240V is applied to a 120V device. This change also does not address that many states do not license pool contractors or service technicians. Here in Texas, I can print some business cards at Kinkos, slap a sticker on my truck and I am good to go. I actually may be worse than some of the better DIYs.
Quoted directly from Pool & Spa News. Statement by Carlos Del Amo, VP of Global Marketing - Pentair Aquatic Systems "Pentair is not anti-Internet; we're just pro-trade." "This is the first of several steps the manufacturer is taking to further support its dealers an service agents, though Del Amo declined to elaborate on what other changes may be down the road"
My guess the next step is limiting phone support and access to installation documentation to certified professionals.
The other interesting observation is that many of the internet sales are by "brick and mortar" stores that also sell over the internet. The manufacturers don't sell directly to the public, they sell through distributors. These distributors do not sell to the public. The internet stores are buying through these distributors at volume discounts and then are selling on the internet. The manufacturers could have chosen to go after these internet sales, blocking their access to distributors to help support pricing. The Big Green Egg is a good example of tightly controlled distribution and thus price support.
As a DIYer I am not entirely opposed to the changes, but let's call it for what it is. I think the 60 day warranty is extreme. I think a 1 year warranty is more reasonable, extending it with professional installation. I would look at that as an extended warranty. Depending on the professional installation cost vs. DIY I may decide to pay for the extended warranty. I am more than willing to pay for phone support and I would be willing to pay for warranty service if I have improperly installed the equipment.
Martin
Looks to me like Pentair is joining Zodiac (Polaris) in a 60 day warranty for equipment installed by someone other than a certified professional. Hayward is currently 1 year. For these three, warranties appear to extended for certified professional installation.
I think this has very little to do with product safety and bad installs by a DIY, this is about supporting price and the trade. If bad installs were the only issue, the manufacturer could refuse to pay for repairs and replacements and charge for warranty service visits for improperly installed equipment. It is easy for an electrical manufacturer to determine the failure when 240V is applied to a 120V device. This change also does not address that many states do not license pool contractors or service technicians. Here in Texas, I can print some business cards at Kinkos, slap a sticker on my truck and I am good to go. I actually may be worse than some of the better DIYs.
Quoted directly from Pool & Spa News. Statement by Carlos Del Amo, VP of Global Marketing - Pentair Aquatic Systems "Pentair is not anti-Internet; we're just pro-trade." "This is the first of several steps the manufacturer is taking to further support its dealers an service agents, though Del Amo declined to elaborate on what other changes may be down the road"
My guess the next step is limiting phone support and access to installation documentation to certified professionals.
The other interesting observation is that many of the internet sales are by "brick and mortar" stores that also sell over the internet. The manufacturers don't sell directly to the public, they sell through distributors. These distributors do not sell to the public. The internet stores are buying through these distributors at volume discounts and then are selling on the internet. The manufacturers could have chosen to go after these internet sales, blocking their access to distributors to help support pricing. The Big Green Egg is a good example of tightly controlled distribution and thus price support.
As a DIYer I am not entirely opposed to the changes, but let's call it for what it is. I think the 60 day warranty is extreme. I think a 1 year warranty is more reasonable, extending it with professional installation. I would look at that as an extended warranty. Depending on the professional installation cost vs. DIY I may decide to pay for the extended warranty. I am more than willing to pay for phone support and I would be willing to pay for warranty service if I have improperly installed the equipment.
Martin
Overall I don't see that this is going to have any real effect on reducing the number of DIY installations, as there is just so much savings to be had on most equipment for the DIY'er. Admittedly the larger price tag items do have less, but if we were to look at the all too common to replace pool pump, I think we would see potential for at least a 50% savings by going the DIY route, probably more, once you add in all the costs of professional installation. Add to this that most warranty replacements do not include service labor, and then the option to go DIY makes even more sense regardless of warranty issues.
Ike
Ike
I would suspect this warranty changes has become a reality due to the Pool Industry pressuring the Manufacturers. The store I used to work in, got a 3 yr warranty on all Hayward parts, due to being a "Gold" customer. I can attest to some of their installers being no more experienced then the normal DIY'er. The margins some of these stores work on is attrocious, then they wack you with overpriced installations. Its an industry that IMO is trying to make margins that have not been seen in any other industry for 40 years. Some items can be marked up 400%. I know, I was their costing agent 
I don't begrudge them making sure they aren't paying out under warranty for something a lousy install caused. That said, I can tell you that the "qualified professionals" endorsed (blindly it seems) by the manufacturer's are all-but useless in my state. Of the three approved pool service companies in my area, ALL 3 insisted I can't put a heater on an above ground pool (and certainly not an Intex). Period. I tried to buy from them (at almost 3 times the cost on-line) just to have them professionally install it and to be sure I had a warranty. They refused. I called the manufacturer and they agreed with the pool gurus on TFP that an AG pool (even Intex) is not incompatible with a 400,000 btu heater. In my case, they assured me they would cover it, and they have. I had to hire a "free-lance" pool service (not recognized by the manufacturer as an approved tech) to do the install - but when I had a problem in year 2 Pentair came through on the warranty work. I doubt I am alone in having the pros not know their stuff, at least in areas with short seasons. I hope the manufacturers continue to help customers like me navigate around the supposed professionals who throw up needless road blocks - but I fear this sort of change makes that unlikely.
These new policy limitations very much go against the spirit of TFP, particularly the forums dealing with equipment. Many if not most of us here are not pool professionals, and yet we have offered "support" for the big three for free. I no longer wish to participate in this. I will also seek out vendors who supply their products with reasonable warranties that cover manufacturing defects. While this may be difficult due to the predominance of Pentair/Hayward/Zodiac-Jandy, I would suggest that alternatives be highlighted and promoted whenever possible. In addition, those frequent contributors here should attempt to inform posters of these warranty limitations where applicable.
:x
:x
Today I installed a new control system for a customer and when I looked at the warranty card, there is now a big square that reads " Please attach original qualified installer's invoice and original sales receipt here as proof of qualified installation and purchase." Interesting.
CraigMW, sorry to say but it's not just the big three mentioned here. If they say this, others will follow.
CraigMW, sorry to say but it's not just the big three mentioned here. If they say this, others will follow.
Waterway pumps have a three year warranty (except on consumables like seals). I do not see an exclusion for self installation. Have they changed their warranty policy?
I've never heard of Waterway and maybe they won't play follow the leader and will continue their practices as usual.
Paul I am surprise to see you have never heard of Waterway, they have been around for a LONG time, we often see photos here of their equipment on OLD pools.
Ike
Ike
Everything I have ever touched had the big names on it. I think the one older names I've seen is Jacuzzi brand.
Occasionally, threads drift away from the subject because the dead horse has been beaten about as much as he can take.
I have no problem keeping this thread open as long as it stays on topic and remains courteous.
Once we've all had our input about warranties, let's put it to rest.
I have no problem keeping this thread open as long as it stays on topic and remains courteous.
Once we've all had our input about warranties, let's put it to rest.
- Status
Similar threads
