AOP, Tab Feeder and Pool Tiger are out! New SWCG is in!

[dailygenesis]

About a year ago, I found TFP and everyone started making fun of my AOP system and tab feeder and telling me how one day I'd get an SWCG (tagging @Dirk here as he was one of the first to tell me this). Well, that day has finally arrived. Since this forum is pretty much entirely responsible for this journey, I thought I needed to post an update with some pics.

Before and after pics are below. And here's an overview of what changed:

REMOVED:

• Del AOP-S system (branded as Blue Haven SmartPure OxiPro 15) and all of its many associated tiny pipes, tubes and check valves.
• CMP Tab Feeder
• Pool Tiger (branded as Blue Haven Smartguard Soft and Clear)
• Weird diverter valve that had no purpose but made it possible to dead head the pump (as noted early on by @Dirk )

ADDED

• Hayward AquaRite 900 with TCELL940 (ACR940)
• Replumbed from filter to heater and heater to return manifold

So far, the best part about this change is that there's no more air bubbles from the AOP constantly coming out of the returns and making noise. Much quieter! I had heard that SWCGs also create bubbles but if they do they are much quieter than what we had with the AOP.

Now the fun begins and we'll see how it works. But I just want to thank everyone for their advice and thoughts all along the way.

BEFORE


AFTER

 

[pjt]

Looks like nice, clean, professional work!

You would benefit from an external heater bypass. Did you consider installing one while doing the plumbing improvements?

 

[dailygenesis]

Looks like nice, clean, professional work!

You would benefit from an external heater bypass. Did you consider installing one while doing the plumbing improvements?

It is something I thought about briefly but never talked to the installer about. There are probably multiple other things I could have benefited from but decided to focus just on getting rid of the unwanted devices, installing the SWG, and simplifying the plumbing overall before getting into the winter.

 

[Dirk]

Looks great! Nice job.

Did I mention previously? If you ever tire of your pressure-side cleaner, or paying for the electricity of its booster pump, or if the pump or vac poop out, you might be able to convert your plumbing to a suction-side cleaner. I hated my PS cleaner, because of the salt spray it got all over my windows (and sometimes me). I had the plumbing converted to accommodate my Rebel suction-side cleaner, and I've been very happy with it ever since. No more emptying out little vac bag, no more tail spraying everywhere, no more booster pump. And cleans just as well (in my pool).

I know, I know... I'm never satisfied!

 

[Dirk]

PS. I don't now remember which valve I said could deadhead your pump. I don't see it in the before pic. But the booster pump source is still in the wrong place? Did I mention that before?

In one of the pool/spa modes, the return pipe that the booster is using to source its water would not have any water in it. Though it might draw from that pipe backwards, which would not be good, at all. The booster's source should have been taken off the plumbing before the return manifold valve, not after it. And in fact, before any chlorinator or heater. That way, whether in spa or pool mode, or SWG or heater on or off, the booster pump feed line would always source filtered pool water (and not hyper-chlorinated or heated water).

It's possible to schedule things such that those things never happen, but it's best practice to not even have the possibility. You could fix that DIY. It's very simple. Just add a tee and plug up the old one. Here:

 

[Newdude]

How along are you in understanding how it works ? Are you fluent in effects of (swg) adding in poolmath ?

You KNOW we'd be happy to help if needed.

 

[dailygenesis]

Did I mention previously? If you ever tire of your pressure-side cleaner, or paying for the electricity of its booster pump, or if the pump or vac poop out, you might be able to convert your plumbing to a suction-side cleaner. I hated my PS cleaner, because of the salt spray it got all over my windows (and sometimes me). I had the plumbing converted to accommodate my Rebel suction-side cleaner, and I've been very happy with it ever since. No more emptying out little vac bag, no more tail spraying everywhere, no more booster pump. And cleans just as well (in my pool).

Interesting. I'd have to learn more about how that works. For now, I'm satisfied with our pressure-side cleaner. One day it will probably break, though, and then I might want to consider options.

PS. I don't now remember which valve I said could deadhead your pump. I don't see it in the before pic. But the booster pump source is still in the wrong place? Did I mention that before?

In one of the pool/spa modes, the return pipe that the booster is using to source its water would not have any water in it. Though it might draw from that pipe backwards, which would not be good, at all. The booster's source should have been taken off the plumbing before the return manifold valve, not after it. And in fact, before any chlorinator or heater. That way, whether in spa or pool mode, or SWG or heater on or off, the booster pump feed line would always source filtered pool water (and not hyper-chlorinated or heated water).

It's possible to schedule things such that those things never happen, but it's best practice to not even have the possibility. You could fix that DIY. It's very simple. Just add a tee and plug up the old one. Here:

Here is the original thread (the first thread I ever posted here). The pic that shows this is in my original post. There was some discussion later about the fact that Blue Haven (our PB) plumbs all of their pools the same way and that this valve was installed for situations in which the equipment might be lower than the pool water and therefore they install a way to shut off the water flow if they are working on the system, etc. If that really is the case, it doesn't apply to my pool as our equipment is higher than the water level, so I had this removed.

And yes, you did mention the booster pump supply. On that one, I decided not to mess with it. One, because there is a setting in our automation system that handles the primary problem that you pointed out. Back when I wrote the thread, I didn't know this setting existed and it wasn't set correctly by our PB. But I discovered the "Interlock" setting on the Ecommand and it is there for exactly this reason -- it prevents running the booster pump if the system is not in "Pool" mode. So, with that enabled, there is no risk of running the booster dry and, in fact, there is another setting that can also ensure it only runs the booster with the main pump at specified speeds. So once I fixed that this issue sort of went out of mind and I didn't think to mess with it with the work I just did here. I do understand there is still the issue of higher-chlorinated and higher heated water going back through the pump, and that is more of an issue now with the SWCG than it was with the LC, but perhaps that's not too terrible of an issue to live with until the next plumbing fixes need to be made.

 

[dailygenesis]

How along are you in understanding how it works ? Are you fluent in effects of (swg) adding in poolmath ?

You KNOW we'd be happy to help if needed.

Thanks! I understand the Pool Math side of it, I think. I'm just trying to get my head around the fact that now every moment the pump is running there will be chlorine generating. This obviously has it's major upside, but also seems like it could become an issue when I need to do things like run the pump for 24 hours after adding stabilizer or run the pump continuously for freeze protection. In those situations, do people just typically set the salt percentage to zero to turn "off" the system? I could certainly do that just thinking it all through.

Also, trying to figure out if I want to just stick with how I normally run the pump (about 10-12 hours per day in summer) and adjust % to that or maybe run the pump longer at lower speeds now that the SWCG is in play.

Also, it seems like LC loss is so variable depending on many factors like cloud cover, etc. and also changes constantly as the months go by so it seems like there would need to be regular adjusting of the % levels, etc. all the time.

Any advice on these fronts is appreciated. I think I understand what I need to do just trying to figure out that best way to attack it.

I also posted this thread last week and didn't get much response if you have any thoughts there.

 

[Dirk]

I revisited the original thread. I remember now about that "dead-head" valve discussion. It's a non-issue now. And I already beat the booster pump horse to death, so it sounds like you have a handle on that now, too. I still contend that part of your plumbing is not right, but I'm confident you have all the facts you need about it.

If you ever want to pursue the switch between pressure- and suction-side vacs, we can cross that bridge then.

You won't get much use out of the SWG this year, as you'll probably have to shut it down for the winter months pretty soon. But you are going to LOVE it next summer!

 

[Newdude]

but also seems like it could become an issue when I need to do things like run the pump for 24 hours after adding stabilizer

Ok. We got you into SWG club. Now we need to get you into 24/7 club.

Swap %'s when you need to adjust runtime. It becomes second nature after a while. Running 4X as long ? Run 1/4 the %. (Etc etc)

For real though about 24/7 club. We have crossover events and 24/7 SWG club is the greatest thing since Betty White. (She was older than sliced bread).

run the pump continuously for freeze protection.

If you are running freeze protection, the swg won't produce anyway, nor will you be losing any appreciable FC daily when it's that cold.

Also, it seems like LC loss is so variable depending on many factors like cloud cover, etc. and also changes constantly as the months go by so it seems like there would need to be regular adjusting of the % levels, etc. all the time.

Your goal is to match the high loss days of that general time of the season. Accept you will over produce the other days and it's insurance FC that will mostly be there for the upcoming days. If you micromanage it, for every time you turn it down, you'll have to turn it back up and you might as well have stuck with bleach.

I also posted this thread last week and didn't get much response if you have any thoughts there.

Sorry you fell through the cracks. We all must have been busy Monday. Bump your own thread anytime if it got missed. I mean. Give us some time, like a day, but definitely not a week.

I replied over there.

 

[dailygenesis]

Ok. We got you into SWG club. Now we need to get you into 24/7 club.

Is 24/7 club the club that runs their pumps continuously at very low speeds with very low SWG percentage? I have read some people promoting that idea. I wasn't sure how widespread this practice is. I certainly didn't know there was a club. Please tell me more about the benefits of this club! As I have thought about it, the one concern I have is whether I will get enough skimming action and water mixing by doing so.

If you are running freeze protection, the swg won't produce anyway, nor will you be losing any appreciable FC daily when it's that cold.

Bruh, now this one I definitely should have figured out on my own

Your goal is to match the high loss days of that general time of the season. Accept you will over produce the other days and it's insurance FC that will mostly be there for the upcoming days. If you micromanage it, for every time you turn it down, you'll have to turn it back up and you might as well have stuck with bleach.

Makes since, it's just the unknown right now having never done it. My FC is high right now so I'm running the SWG at 0 (off) for 24 hours to measure my loss currently over a day (I know about what it is but want to double check). Then I will set the SWG accordingly and see how it goes -- at least until temps get too low, but I think we've got a month or so until that happens.

Sorry you fell through the cracks. We all must have been busy Monday. Bump your own thread anytime if it got missed. I mean. Give us some time, like a day, but definitely not a week.

No worries. Thanks!

 

[Dirk]

I'm not a member of the 24/7 club. They never even invited me.

I prefer to run my pump and equipment as little as possible. My SWG requires a minimum flow rate that needs about 1500RPM to achieve. Running any slower and my SWG won't produce. I can maintain my FC with 8 hours at 1500 RPM, and my solar heater will heat my pool with the same 8 hours. As you pointed out, skimming works better at higher RPM, too. Circulation is pretty much a non-issue. Any RPM that satisfies any SWG will mix your pool well enough. Same with filtering. You would only need to run longer for filtering if you notice your water wasn't crystal clear. So what's the benefit of running the other 16 hours?

The other consideration is spiking. This is not a big deal, but it is a thing. Here's what I mean. When you run a non-SWG pool, unless you're willing to pour a little chlorine into your pool every hour or so, you usually pour in a bunch once a day, or once every other day, or even less if you get lazy. You have to dump in enough to last the duration of the cycle. So at first, at the beginning of the cycle, your pool will have more FC than it needs. Loss will occur mostly during the day, and then towards the end of the cycle, a day or three later, your pool will have less chlorine, much less, and maybe too little if you're lazy. So you then spike it again, to restart the cycle, and so on.

This happens, to some degree, with 24/7 pools. Your SWG is running 24/7, and because there is not much loss during the night, your FC is building up. In the morning it spikes, a little higher than you need, and then daytime loss sets in and by the end of the day your FC is on the low side. Then the cycle repeats. But my eight hour cycle is timed to maximize the sun on my solar panels, and on the pool, which of course is when the FC loss is most occurring. So by running my SWG only during that time, the FC production is only occurring during the FC loss period. My spiking is much less, so the FC is always (almost) constant, never too high, or too low. My FC is being replaced at the same rate it is being consumed.

As I said, this is not that big of a deal, just something to be aware of. The spike is not all that much, and I doubt there is a significant SWG cost difference (the cost of using up the SWG) between one MO and the other. But depending on where you live, and the RPMs required to satisfy your SWG (based on your plumbing configuration), the cost of running the pump 24/7 will be higher than a daytime-only cycle, and perhaps significantly higher depending on your electrical supplier's rate tier schedule.

It just "feels" more cost effective to run as little as possible, I've never actually done the math.

The bullies, uh, people in the 24/7 club will have a different take, and can speak to the advantages of their MO. I just want to point out that they don't even have a club house or cool jackets, they don't ever have any mixers and don't even offer any cookies or cake. I mean, come on.

 

[Flying Tivo]

I'm not a member of the 24/7 club. They never even invited me.

That because you are 24/7 here at TFP, and matter cant occupy the same space at the same time. You got to decide!

 

[Newdude]

Bruh, now this one I definitely should have figured out on my own

I've missed WAY worse so no finger pointing from me.

I have read some people promoting that idea. I wasn't sure how widespread this practice is.

I believe we have a majority if those with VS pumps, and It gains traction everyday. @Dirk makes some great points and nobody is wrong here. I initially went 24/7 to look at the running water. It costs about an extra $10 a month and we liked it. We mix, skim, filter and produce FC around the clock, so the timing of the big storm or incoming debris doesn't matter. Most of us are running elevated FC levels so that the low point of the daily swing is still plenty free and clear of min.

My FC is high right now so I'm running the SWG at 0 (off) for 24 hours to measure my loss currently over a day (I know about what it is but want to double check). Then I will set the SWG accordingly and see how it goes -- at least until temps get too low, but I think we've got a month or so until that happens.

This is a GREAT time to learn. By the time spring rolls around and you're playing for keeps, it'll be second nature.

Keep.us posted.

 

[Dirk]

Most of us are running elevated FC levels so that the low point of the daily swing is still plenty free and clear of min.

This is the important take away. Whatever SWG runtime strategy you use, keep your FC well above the minimum level for your pool, at all times. You can't win playing chicken with algae, it'll never swerve.

 

[1poolman1]

PS. I don't now remember which valve I said could deadhead your pump. I don't see it in the before pic. But the booster pump source is still in the wrong place? Did I mention that before?

In one of the pool/spa modes, the return pipe that the booster is using to source its water would not have any water in it. Though it might draw from that pipe backwards, which would not be good, at all. The booster's source should have been taken off the plumbing before the return manifold valve, not after it. And in fact, before any chlorinator or heater. That way, whether in spa or pool mode, or SWG or heater on or off, the booster pump feed line would always source filtered pool water (and not hyper-chlorinated or heated water).

It's possible to schedule things such that those things never happen, but it's best practice to not even have the possibility. You could fix that DIY. It's very simple. Just add a tee and plug up the old one. Here:

View attachment 534529

Put the booster-pump supply where it is marked and the spa will drain when in use unless another 3-way valve and actuator is installed that will close in spa operation. It is OK, though not ideal, where it is.

 

[Dirk]

Put the booster-pump supply where it is marked and the spa will drain when in use unless another 3-way valve and actuator is installed that will close in spa operation. It is OK, though not ideal, where it is.

Can you help me understand that? When what is in use? The spa or the vac? What would cause the spa to drain? There is a check valve no the spa side of the return manifold. Would that make a difference to your warning?

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Can you help me understand that? When what is in use? The spa or the vac? What would cause the spa to drain? There is a check valve no the spa side of the return manifold. Would that make a difference to your warning?

I'm gonna take a stab at it... When running in spa mode, there is nothing to stop the water from pushing through the booster pump into the pool. Eventually it would drain the spa down. I think that is what @1poolman1 is saying.

--Jeff

 

[dailygenesis]

I'm gonna take a stab at it... When running in spa mode, there is nothing to stop the water from pushing through the booster pump into the pool. Eventually it would drain the spa down. I think that is what @1poolman1 is saying.

--Jeff

Yes, I think that's right. Part of the return water would push through the booster pump into the pool and since suction would be from spa only it would drain spa. I hadn't thought about that but it seems to make sense. What do you think, @Dirk ?

 

[Dirk]

What do you think, @Dirk ?

I think I have to learn more about pool plumbing, that's what I think!

Pages 2 and 3:

https://www.pentair.com/content/dam/extranet/nam/pentair-pool/residential/pumps/hydroboost/hydroboost-booster-install-guide.pdf

agrees with 1poolman1, though it doesn't explain why. Sounds like you two figured it out. My bad.

I had it right for plumbing with and without heater, but not when a spa is involved. It mentions keeping the booster feed 3' away from the heater, so that is a concern. The manual doesn't mention the SWG, but I think I'm right about that, too. An SWG is supposed to be last in the chain, so that the super-chlorinated water goes directly to the pool, and not through anything else. I guess there is no choice when there is a spa involved.

I think wherever the tap is, you have to protect one thing or another with the automation. No matter how it's plumbed, you can't run the spa and the vac at the same time. I don't have any stats on what happens running an active SWG through a booster, but I don't imagine doing so is good for it. Perhaps you can program around that, too. Run your vac cycle each night when no one is likely using the pool or spa, when you're not running SWG or heating your pool. I run mine at 4:30am, when there is no solar heater or SWG action. That is for reasons of safety and vac performance (neither of which apply to a pressure-side vacs, but something you'll have to contend with if you ever switch to a suction-side vac). It is also something to think through if you're still considering the 24/7 club.

Thanks for the lesson everybody!