Alkalinity and PH problems

[Mdragger88]

To my knowledge there’s no poolmath app available on the Mac App Store- at least I know for sure its not available for macOS monterey. Not sure about ventura or sonoma. Maybe @JoyfulNoise can confirm.

 

[Cape cruiser]

Total Cleanse is essentially the same as Ahh-Some Gel. Using it 3 times correctly is a lot.
Are you using 1 level teaspoon for each 125 gallons of water? Are you turning all jets on high when adding the purple gel to a filled hot tub? If so, you should have no biofilms in the plumbing and jets or the tub was highly contaminated. Total Cleans is a very strong purge product. Typically, our gel is well over 20 times more effective than the other brand you mention.
Hope you were purging correctly. Please
Repost that you did follow the purge instructions.

Thanks for responding Ahhsome guy. Yes I have used it correctly. I used 3 level Tsp for 390 gallons and I ran jets for two cycles (40 minutes)removing light brown scum from tub walls. I rinsed real good as tub was draining and then refilled tub . With PH levls still high the brown scum comes back in about five days and I used TC and drained again. I did this three times with TC. My last fill with lots of dry acid my PH went down to 7.0 and the light brown scum cleared up for the most part. My water is clear.

 

[Cape cruiser]

For what its worth, I couldn't keep my tub pH stable until I got my TA down around 60-70 ppm. I had been running 80-100 and the pH climbed above 8, every single time I used the tub (due to aeration). I've heard that TA lower than 50 ppm can cause it to go acidic too easy. I also find that fresh water is the most difficult to keep stable. After a couple weeks, it seems to become more stable.

Only way my PH will comes down is when my TA is in mid 30's or lower

 

[Cape cruiser]

To my knowledge there’s no poolmath app available on the Mac App Store- at least I know for sure its not available for macOS monterey. Not sure about ventura or sonoma. Maybe @JoyfulNoise can confirm.

Thanks Mdragger88. I guess I could have my wife use her phone and give the info to me. Thanks again.

 

[Cape cruiser]

Poolmath is the only calculator we recommend using as its the most up to date and follows tfp recommendations - if you have any issues you can get help here quickly as well. There’s a dedicated subforum for poolmath.

you can either use the app
or the old web page here

PoolMath

Discover the calculator behind the perfect pool, PoolMath. Dealing with pools has allowed TFP to become the original authors of the best calculator on the net.

www.troublefreepool.com

This link is also at the bottom of every tfp page.

the app is available for windows computers & chromebooks as well as iPhones, android phones, ipads, android tablets & kindle tablets.

With the app there are lots more features & you can save all your logs if you go for the subscription ($8 or$9/yr) which is really helpful. (Click my avatar/pic to see my logs)
Without a subscription it just saves your most recent log.

You can’t do that with the webpage version unfortunately.

Awesome ,I didnt see this app I could use on a windows computer. That will work perfectly ! Thanks again.

 

[Cape cruiser]

I have a TF pro test kit and other chemicals ordered for a refill . My question is do I need a metal out or a stain and scale control ?(I thought thet were the same thing but they arent) My last test at spa dealer showed total iron at .10ppm and copper at .20. I have spa gaurd stain and scale that appears to be contaminated. It is a yellow liquid that has blobs of red something floating in it. I will order what is recommended to me . I read on here about them but didnt come up with an answer. Thanks

 

[Mdragger88]

If that is the same copper result as your fill water then you may want to use a sequestrant.
If it was after you used pristine blue products (which contain copper) then exchanging water & discontinuing the pristine blue products should mean you don’t need a sequestrant.
Fwiw my fill water tests .3 ppm copper & I do not use sequestrant in my spa. I haven’t experienced any issues.
If you determine you do need to use a sequestrant (stains appear, water has a green/brown tint when chlorine is applied etc. )
Then go with one of the recommended ones in this article without added polymers that the spaguard has in it

Sequestrant - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

If you manage the ph, ta & ch/ csi as we recommend you should not need any additional “scale” products.

Calcium Scale - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[phonedave]

Only way my PH will comes down is when my TA is in mid 30's or lower

Your TA and pH will come into a balance that is known only to them. There is a relationship between TA and pH as well a number of other factors.

Your best bet at this time is to forget about driving to a specific TA. Instead drive to a pH. 7.2 or so. As @Mdragger88 said, anything in the 7's is good. Aim for the low end while dosing, since it will naturally drift up in a hot tub. You will add acid, and it will be 7.2, then the next day it will be 8.0, so you will add more acid to get it back to 7.2. While you are doing this, your TA is also moving around on it's own. Then one day you will add acid to get the pH to 7.2. The next day you will check and the pH will STILL be 7.2 (or maybe 7.5 - some reasonable number below 8.0). That is when you will have found your magic balance of pH and TA (and you can measure your TA to see what that is). Then you can go ahead and add your borates if you wish.

 

[Mdragger88]

I want to add that while the way you were doing it seemed so “easy and stable” - it was likely not.
You just weren’t seeing the fluctuations because you weren’t testing very frequently.
Also you were using products that had various effects on multiple parameters- like the acidic dichlor.
Seeing what we recommend as more complicated initially is a very common feeling for many.
For instance, when people switch their pool from using acidic trichlor to using liquid chlorine/swcg & maintaining parameters (ph,ta,cya,fc) individually. All those things were still happening/moving before but behind the scenes & very hard to track because they put a puck in & it did 4 things all at once. While usually having a somewhat clear but often undersanitized body of water.
It’s like one person spending the money all week & the other is trying to keep up with balancing the check book on Sunday. reactive, not proactive.

Using PoolMath effects of adding allows you to know what each thing you intend to add will do to your water before you use it instead of just dumping some pre prescribed amount of something in & later wondering what happened/hoping for the best.

The main premise of TFP is to accurately test your water frequently and then only add what the pool/spa needs. Nothing more, nothing less. It does require some attention & a basic understanding of
The ABC’s of pool water chemistry
but it’s quite a simple recipe really.

 

[Cape cruiser]

If that is the same copper result as your fill water then you may want to use a sequestrant.
If it was after you used pristine blue products (which contain copper) then exchanging water & discontinuing the pristine blue products should mean you don’t need a sequestrant.
Fwiw my fill water tests .3 ppm copper & I do not use sequestrant in my spa. I haven’t experienced any issues.
If you determine you do need to use a sequestrant (stains appear, water has a green/brown tint when chlorine is applied etc. )
Then go with one of the recommended ones in this article without added polymers that the spaguard has in it

Sequestrant - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

If you manage the ph, ta & ch/ csi as we recommend you should not need any additional “scale” products.

Calcium Scale - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Thank you very much Mdragger88. The copper and iron readings are from my tap water, I stopped Pristine blue 2 months ago. I will order one of the recommended ones today. Is that a one time use after refill or a weekly add? Thanks again ,Bret

 

[Mdragger88]

Thank you very much Mdragger88. The copper and iron readings are from my tap water, I stopped Pristine blue 2 months ago. I will order one of the recommended ones today. Is that a one time use after refill or a weekly add? Thanks again ,Bret

Most who prescribe to the drain/refill intervals of every 3-6 months we recommend are able to get away with a 1 time addition upon refill. Ymmv. Basically if you see a problem you’ll know you need sequestrant. I believe proteam has a more diluted metal magic product that is designed for spas so its not so hard to measure.

 

[Cape cruiser]

Your TA and pH will come into a balance that is known only to them. There is a relationship between TA and pH as well a number of other factors.

Your best bet at this time is to forget about driving to a specific TA. Instead drive to a pH. 7.2 or so. As @Mdragger88 said, anything in the 7's is good. Aim for the low end while dosing, since it will naturally drift up in a hot tub. You will add acid, and it will be 7.2, then the next day it will be 8.0, so you will add more acid to get it back to 7.2. While you are doing this, your TA is also moving around on it's own. Then one day you will add acid to get the pH to 7.2. The next day you will check and the pH will STILL be 7.2 (or maybe 7.5 - some reasonable number below 8.0). That is when you will have found your magic balance of pH and TA (and you can measure your TA to see what that is). Then you can go ahead and add your borates if you wish.

Thanks phonedave. So I shouldnt raise TA to 60 ppm or so and then try to lower PH? Just lower PH from the start up and see where TA falls?

 

[Cape cruiser]

I want to add that while the way you were doing it seemed so “easy and stable” - it was likely not.
You just weren’t seeing the fluctuations because you weren’t testing very frequently.
Also you were using products that had various effects on multiple parameters- like the acidic dichlor.
Seeing what we recommend as more complicated initially is a very common feeling for many.
For instance, when people switch their pool from using acidic trichlor to using liquid chlorine/swcg & maintaining parameters (ph,ta,cya,fc) individually. All those things were still happening/moving before but behind the scenes & very hard to track because they put a puck in & it did 4 things all at once. While usually having a somewhat clear but often undersanitized body of water.
It’s like one person spending the money all week & the other is trying to keep up with balancing the check book on Sunday. reactive, not proactive.

Using PoolMath effects of adding allows you to know what each thing you intend to add will do to your water before you use it instead of just dumping some pre prescribed amount of something in & later wondering what happened/hoping for the best.

The main premise of TFP is to accurately test your water frequently and then only add what the pool/spa needs. Nothing more, nothing less. It does require some attention & a basic understanding of
The ABC’s of pool water chemistry
but it’s quite a simple recipe really.

Ah Ha seems like everything I have learned over the years I just need to throw out the door and start fresh. I cant say thank you enough for all of the help im getting here.

 

[Cape cruiser]

Most who prescribe to the drain/refill intervals of every 3-6 months we recommend are able to get away with a 1 time addition upon refill. Ymmv. Basically if you see a problem you’ll know you need sequestrant. I believe proteam has a more diluted metal magic product that is designed for spas so its not so hard to measure.

Awesome Ill get that ordered today

 

[Cape cruiser]

Thanks phonedave. So I shouldnt raise TA to 60 ppm or so and then try to lower PH? Just lower PH from the start up and see where TA falls?

I guess I need to add TA increase first because my PH from tap starts out at 6.3 PH

 

[Mdragger88]

I guess I need to add TA increase first because my PH from tap starts out at 6.3 PH

What is your fill water ta?

 

[Cape cruiser]

What is your fill water ta?

16ppm

 

[Mdragger88]

16ppm

Would it be possible to use the treated water for filling your tub?

If not here’s a good reminder of what to pick when looking to increase ta or ph

Not sure what the ingredients of your ta increaser are but it looks like about 2 oz (dry weight) of soda ash (sodium carbonate/super washing soda) would put you right where you need to be upon refill
yielding a ta of 52 & ph of 7.4

You must be sure to measure carefully in such a small body of water. Go light handed- you can always add more.
In general if the ph is only slightly low simply getting the ta up to 50ppm with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)
will allow it to correct itself with a little aeration so that’s ok to use in this instance too if that’s what you have on hand.
Use poolmath effects of adding before hand.

 

[Cape cruiser]

Would it be possible to use the treated water for filling your tub?

If not here’s a good reminder of what to pick when looking to increase ta or ph
View attachment 574816
Not sure what the ingredients of your ta increaser are but it looks like about 2 oz (dry weight) of soda ash (sodium carbonate/super washing soda) would put you right where you need to be upon refill
yielding a ta of 52 & ph of 7.4
View attachment 574817ragger88
You must be sure to measure carefully in such a small body of water. Go light handed- you can always add more.
In general if the ph is only slightly low simply getting the ta up to 50ppm with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)
will allow it to correct itself with a little aeration so that’s ok to use in this instance too if that’s what you have on hand.
Use poolmath effects of adding before hand.

I could use the treated water ,it uses a chemical called Neutra 7 . I have never tried it thought because I didnt know if it would play well with other tub chemicals. Previously I used baking soda, the issue is when I added baking soda the TA rose fine but the PH went from 6.3 to over 8.2 . I could use a bottle of PH down (dry acid) to get it right and then TA would be back down in the teens. When I receive my TF pro test kit in a couple of days I will check my treated water PH and TA. Maybe its worth a try to use it. This is all strange to me that 3 months ago I would need to add 20 TSP of baking soda and just a little of PH increase and things seemed good. Now if I add 3 TSP my PH goes 8.2 plus. I always add chems in small amounts,I would rather sneak up on it than overshoot it. So I guess its best to increase my TA to 50-60 and then try to lower PH with muriatic acid ? I just got Pool Math app so I should be ready to go shortly. Thanks Mdragger88

 

[Cape cruiser]

I looked up Neutra 7 and it said it is a proprietory compound of soda ash and polyphosphate. It doesnt mean much to me but maybe it is compatable with other tub chems.