1963 pool resurection

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Most pool owners just don't care. They want a hole with blue water. That's why they get suckered by the pool store next. Most people don't want to be informed. A guy I work with had a pool put in two years ago. He said the usual couple pucks a week, shock every weekend. I told him about this site and that there was a better way. He just smiled and nodded. He didn't care. I can't wait for his CYA to blow through the roof. Should be getting there next year I imagine. Maybe the year after. I want to be able to enlighten someone. Is that too much to ask!


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I feel very enlightened by this this site along with other research I have done. I have even been invited over to another members home to see his pool and ask him a million questions which he gladly answered for me and gave me his thoughts on what he likes and dislikes about his pool and equipment. Priceless. Thanks ping!
I have a Leslie's right across the street so close that I can actually see it from my backyard. The pb told me I was lucky and could walk over water samples to them. I just laughed and told him no thanks. I have my own test kit and will be caring for this pool myself. He just laughed and said I'm sure of that. I bet you won't let anyone else near it.
I do like to overkill and do things kind of to the extreme compared to most. Why not given the option?
I told him from the get go that I wasn't concerned about fancy tiles,waterfalls and rocks and such, I'm really more interested in what's under the hood than the paint job. Simple in appearance but fully automated with good circulation to minimize future maintenance. I would rather put the money up front for good equipment and less work to keep my pool clean and trouble free. This way I'm not paying someone a monthly fee for the next 20 or 30 years so it will pay off in the long run.
I'm pretty sure most people on this site would agree.
Trouble free pool.
That says it all!
 
We'll pb is here and still not getting it. Has plumber friend telling me that there isn't one other pool in this state ( California) that has individual returns line coming up into the pad with valves on them thinks it's pointless. Pb has offered me $300 discount if I can show him one pool that does have this.
 
I WISH I had it so I could take a pic for you to show him. Darn!

To me it makes sense to have a valve on ALL lines so you can have as much control as possible.

I sure hope someone has pics so you can show him and get that $300!

And what does it matter to him???? He has to know by know you will not back down! Just do it and get it over with. So what if NO ONCE else in the world has it. It is what I want so do it!

Kim
 
Mine is split into two sections; two on the deep end, and one on the shallow end with two more on the steps. What is his problem plumbing them individually? The trench is already there. It's what an extra hundred feet of pipe? Who cares, just do it!


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Two thoughts that are totally "my humble opinion" -

1. It's your money to spend so the PB should just do whatever you want;

2. Having a separate line and valve for each return really makes no sense at all (opinion). It's a waste of PVC, it all has to be pressure tested and it's all potentially a source of leaks. As well, if you have 6 returns, are you going to pay for 6 Jandy-style shutoff valves or use 6 ball-valves which are cheaper but are more prone to spring a leak....maybe having returns plumbed in sections is as far as I would go, but not each one individually. There's just very little benefit associated with that extra cost and complexity.

Again, my thoughts, take it or leave it....
 
Generally, attempting to balance your returns with valves is going to be a loss in efficiency. You are far better off having all returns at 100% and having an imbalance than reducing the flow on the strongest return and reducing the total flow rate of all the returns in aggregate. However, to control deck jets, waterfalls and other features, valves are a must.

As for the number of return lines, having multiple lines is fine but you can accomplish the same thing with a single larger line too. 2x2" is about the same a 1x2 1/2".

Also, you can balance the returns by having a larger pipe between the returns. The reason returns end up having different flow rates is because of the pipe loss between the returns. Increase the pipe size and you end up decreasing the pressure difference between returns and evening out the flow rates. Not that balanced returns are all that necessary anyway.
 
mas985 said:
Generally, attempting to balance your returns with valves is going to be a loss in efficiency. You are far better off having all returns at 100% and having an imbalance than reducing the flow on the strongest return and reducing the total flow rate of all the returns in aggregate. However, to control deck jets, waterfalls and other features, valves are a must.

As for the number of return lines, having multiple lines is fine but you can accomplish the same thing with a single larger line too. 2x2" is about the same a 1x2 1/2".

Also, you can balance the returns by having a larger pipe between the returns. The reason returns end up having different flow rates is because of the pipe loss between the returns. Increase the pipe size and you end up decreasing the pressure difference between returns and evening out the flow rates. Not that balanced returns are all that necessary anyway.
Click to expand...

So then would it be better to plumb a huge 3" PVC loop all around the pool and then have 1-1/2" lines stem off from that to be your returns?


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Yes but you really don't need to loop with a 3" pipe. Looping doesn't help much because the head loss between returns is already so low.
 

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What I ended up asking him to do was just bring up each 2" return to the pad and manifold. There are 3 returns.
Am I going to benefit from this or am I just being crazy? He says says that if we bring them up individually they would really only need to be 1" or 1 1/2".
I told him that we really have one chance to do this before concrete so why not? I don't see any down side other than losing a little space on the pad.
All I want in the long run is a real good circulation system that will be easy to maintain. I don't want to be unreasonable or make unnecessary demands just because it's my pool.
I have seen builds go wrong when people make crazy demands by misunderstanding what is and isn't beneficial.
Thoughts?
 
I'm am by no means an expert in fluid dynamics here but doesn't a long run of large diameter pipe mean a lower pump pressure and higher flow rate? As well, don't water pumps have a flow versus pressure operating point where they are designed for a specific range or else they don't pump efficiently?

My real world example here would be my waterfall where the pump output is tied the a 3-way valve that selects between the 2-1/2" waterfall pipe and a 1-1/2" return. If I put the full pump on 100% to waterfall, the pressure is real low, the flow rate is high and the wet-head makes a lot if noise. If I mix the water so that there's some going to the single return line, then there seems to be enough back-pressure to make the wet head quiet again.


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So what is a better solution here? Should I let him tee two of the 2" returns together and bring two 2" lines up to pad? Or just let him tie all three underground and bring it up once and be done with it?
I am getting a little confused at to what is and isn't going to benefit me. I like my pb and don't want to make demands that are pointless.
I will definitely be bringing up main drains separately from skimmer though.
Again I just want good circulation.
I don't want pb problems.
 
SunnyOptimism said:
I'm am by no means an expert in fluid dynamics here but doesn't a long run of large diameter pipe mean a lower pump pressure and higher flow rate? As well, don't water pumps have a flow versus pressure operating point where they are designed for a specific range or else they don't pump efficiently?

My real world example here would be my waterfall where the pump output is tied the a 3-way valve that selects between the 2-1/2" waterfall pipe and a 1-1/2" return. If I put the full pump on 100% to waterfall, the pressure is real low, the flow rate is high and the wet-head makes a lot if noise. If I mix the water so that there's some going to the single return line, then there seems to be enough back-pressure to make the wet head quiet again.
Click to expand...
Yes but what is your point? If you had had three lines of 1 1/2" pipe it would be about the same then. Pumps have a very wide range of operating points which is why the publish a head curve. All are valid operating points.




dumbcluck said:
So what is a better solution here? Should I let him tee two of the 2" returns together and bring two 2" lines up to pad? Or just let him tie all three underground and bring it up once and be done with it?
Click to expand...
Either way will work fine. There might be a slight difference in head loss but I don't think it would amount to much.
 
The point of my previous question was to find out if the OP is asking for a piping preference that would then lead to inefficient pump operation. My personal example was to illustrate that you can make a pump operate inefficiently if you get to far outside it's operating curve.

As I said, I'm not expert on pumps and piping but if all the scenarios he's thrown out are equivalent in terms of pump operation (efficiency) then there's nothing left to discuss on that point.


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Ok. I talked to him about it and decided to let him do his thing with the returns. I'm still asking for separate runs for skimmer and main drains though so I can drain the pool through the pump. He explained to me about the two holes in the skimmer and float valve for that purpose but I told him I'd rather not trust a piece of plastic to do that for me.
See how it goes from here.
Thanks for the feedback guys.
 
Just show this picture to your PB and tell him it could be a lot worse.

PlumbingPadView4.jpg
 

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