2nd attempt at planning for a pool

[NorCalX]

I'm with your wife on this one. There are industry standards on shallow/deep transitions and sidewall to bottom transitions for any area designed for "jumping" or "diving".

Once you move out of these standards any accidents fall on your shoulders, hence why the PB wants a signed waiver.

The other party to get involved in the discussion is your homeowners insurance company. I can bet the idea of you signing a "waiver" will be a non-starter from the insurance company based on liability issues. You need to understand that you may have different policy premiums or even need to find a new insurance company once a pool comes into the picture as some do not want to cover the added liability. When we purchased the house with a pool our company (USAA) sent an inspector to the house who verified fences and child proof locks on gates leading to the pool.

No need to worry. I like the idea but it is NOT being considered in my build

I came across the build for TX-C and saw he had done it and I loved the idea

Page 5 post #85 has a good shot of it after gunite
Page 6 post #107 has the pool filled with water showing it off


I also have USAA and inquired about any issues and premium changes in my planning for slide/grotto etc. Was told I have no limits/restrictions and they just recommend I increase my policy coverage when completed

 

[kimkats]

So with the kids being that young then a slide would get lots of use for a few years. They tend to tire of it as they get older UNLESS they have friends over to get them interested in it again BUT some of the *fun* the teens can get into with that can cause your hair to fall out..........well any fun they have can cause that LOL I say if the wallet can handle the slide go for it around the grotto.

Kim

 

[Dirk]

+1 on grotto
-1 on deck slide
+/- 0 on built-in slide

I can only swim in my pool less than half the year, so a big part of the ROI is looking at it the rest of the time. Grottos are beautiful. Deck slides, not so much.

Would my kids have a blast in a pool with a slide? Yes. Would my kids have a blast in a pool without a slide? Yes. They'll use a spa more, I'll bet. If I had to choose between a slide and a spa, or making a bigger/nicer spa, I'd put the money into the spa... Everybody uses a spa. All ages. Doesn't get old. Slides: a few minutes of enjoyment once in a while, for a few; a spa is hours of enjoyment, possibly year-round, for everybody.

Regarding the drains... if you're determined to lose the drains, but the PB says no, siting code, be sure to check the code yourself. Some PBs misinterpret the code, or misrepresent the code, for their own preferences. You'll always find code that governs what the drains must be if there are drains, but not necessarily code requiring drains. The wording can be confusing, and distinguishing the difference is not always obvious. A conversation with the building dept is a better resource than a PB or his design team...

 

[NorCalX]

Current research project is pool safety net v mesh safety fence/safety cover (loop loc etc.)

The situation we are concerned about is when the pool is NOT in use for swimming but we are using our backyard socially with family/friends who have smaller children

My original idea was put the safety mesh cover on (I figure it can be used whenever and isn't limited to winter...maybe it can serve as a pseudo auto cover if I just leave it on...haven't found much discussion on it though)

My wife did some research and found pool safety nets as the default safety item. Leave it on when not swimming and replace when done (5-15 min of work I know and accept it).
The pro over safety mesh is you can still see the pool features and even use your water features while secured.

Here are some samples I found

Anyone have experience with these or encounter similar design choices?

 

[kimkats]

Those open holes look very dangerous to me. I would worry about feet, human or critters, getting caught in them. The safety covers I have seen and heard about are solid.

 

[Dirk]

Kim beat me to it. A small child could drown on the one pictured. I looked at those when I first moved in to my house with pool, for my littles, and decided I just wouldn't want to use it, or rather, I just wouldn't swim as much if I did. Unless I have people over, most of my swims last for less time than it would take to put it on. Not even counting taking it off. I'd either neglect to use it, or not swim as much, or both. I'm certainly not trying to discourage you from using one, just sharing that I know it wouldn't work for me and my family. And I certainly wouldn't watch my kids any less if that was covering my pool.

I treat my whole backyard as an open swimming pool, regardless of kids in the pool or not, otherwise I lock down the doors to the yard (keyed or kid-proof locks). I don't watch the pool any more or less depending on if there's kids in it or not. If there's kids in the yard, it's lifeguard on duty, and none of the available safety devices (and I've looked at them all) would change that. For me, nets and fences and alarms would all give me a false sense of security, and make me lax about guarding the pool. Based on my middle one alone, and his uncanny ability to find the most dangerous thing to do given any environment (it's just "where he lives" as his mom puts it), if a kid wants into the water, he's going to get in. Here's a case in point, these people thought their pool was made safe:

Dads viral video of toddler climbing pool ladder is a warning to parents - YouTube

If there was any fence capable of stopping my wrecking crew (there isn't, short of barbed wire), he'd build a structure out of chairs to defeat it. He sees such things as a personal challenge. And he teaches his little sister everything. He'd be out on that net, trying to cross it. No joke. And of course, he usually calls out to show off when he's achieved the pinnacle of danger, he'd be in the middle of the pool before he called out. Or what if he got tangle up in the middle. I'm 200+, how would I get to him? Not without pushing him underwater while crawling out there.

I've introduced these controversial notions before, here, without much support. I can't really argue that one, or more layers, of safety devices is a bad idea. It's not. I just know me, and my kids, and have decided that absolute, unwavering, uninterrupted supervision is the only acceptable safety system.

All that being said, I'd look for one with a much tighter mesh, and one that could be safely walked on by an adult. The one I most liked was similar, but you could sinch it up from the middle, to make if very taught.

 

[NorCalX]

I understand the criticism when first seeing the product (I had the same reaction).

The main manufacturer for a safety net appears to be katchakid

Here is an old promo video they have showing children on the net if you are curious

The main design goal is prevention of accidental drowning from small children (the mesh holes prevent small ones from travelling towards the middle of the pool and are intentional)
The net can safely be walked on by 2 adults (same 485lb rating as the mesh safety covers)

Makes sense to me as the summer safety tool when the other option is an open pool (same human/critter dangers).
In the winter I would use the traditional mesh safety cover (loop loc style)

The alternative is to simply use the traditional mesh safety cover and remove/replace regularly during swim season. I know that will be a PITA but it is an option

I can't find how long it takes people to put their safety covers on/off with research so far

I'm honestly not too worried about pool safety for my immediate family. I grew up with a pool and none of these safety features. My wife had the opposite experience growing up and knows people who lost small children in pool drownings.

The safety net is her top peace of mind design choice right now. I definitely see the merits of putting it as a layer of security. It would probably replace the mesh fence around the pool perimeter

My original safety plan was mesh fence (all seasons) + mesh safety cover (non swim season)

I'm curious if I can make more use of the mesh safety cover during the swim season or if we should change paths and use a safety net system during the swim season

Any people who have tried that or just know in general how long their mesh safety cover takes to add/remove are appreciated

 

[Dirk]

I had read (sorry, no direct experience) 5-15 minutes each for on and off, depending on how many people were involved.

I had also read that the mesh size was intentional, and while I see the logic, I didn't agree with it.

The video is impressive. It is the same system I referred to as the best I had seen, with the cinch mechanism. The video (to me) clearly demonstrates the problem of submerging a tangled child if an adult was to crawl out on it. But it also points out the unblemished track record, which, if true, is undeniably impressive. It states 5 minutes off (which I could see), and 8 minutes on (which I suspect is more marketing than reality, so I think that likely an exaggeration, or a best-case-scenario number).

Of all the possible safety systems, I had concluded this to be the best. Better than a fence. Better than anything based on electronics. And better than locking off the backyard (my kids could figure out my locks before they could get that net off).

So I think you're on the right track.

It just wasn't right for me, because this system's trade off of safety vs convenience wasn't going to work for my use... And pretty much all systems come down to the trade off of safety vs convenience, so you have to select which ratio is right for you.

 

[NorCalX]

Update on where I am for anyone curious

The initial meet and greet phase and rough design planning is over

I'm starting to get specifics back from the PBs I contacted and am told to expect their first drafts this or next week

One of the things I have learned is that some PB don't do certain pool features (artificial grottos or slides)

So it has become apparent one of the first hard choices we will need to make is whether we go with a PB who uses natural stone or artificial rock (either custom built or rico rock style)

The natural stone PBs all say a stone grotto starts at 20k here. This means the grotto/slide we originally imagined has been downgraded all the way to a waterfall design instead

I have contacted some other PBs who are fine with the artificial rock and tell me a grotto/slide feature should fit in the budget

I'm using a rough budget of 90k right now but open to stretching if the proposed water features catch my eye

The 90k budget is for pool and related items but not landscaping/ decking etc.

For people looking in CA I've seen pool packages that start anywhere between 65k-80k for default size (84 linear feet for example)

Some charge for sun shelf others don't

 

[NorCalX]

Frustration is the current state of our project...

We left up to 25k in our budget for a nice feature add on as the center piece of the pool

So far I am not happy with my options

Currently being told a modest grotto like this or bubbling boulders like these (only want a few boulders to cover 10-15 linear feet) start at 20k because the boulders and rocks are heavy and expensive is killing me...









I can't tell if my estimates are completely out of whack or something else
The grotto pool owner actually shared their construction cost from 2008 as 2,900 for grotto. I know location in US and 10 years change pricing but sticker shock is real

Maybe I can beg @bdavis466 or another CA PB to give rough estimates on water features so I know I'm not going in with unreasonable expectations

 

[kimkats]

I can see why you want the grotto as it is a true masterpiece of pool art! I bet if you PM bdavis he will give you some input.

Kim

 

[bdavis466]

Hi Antonio,

I think you should be able to accomplish your goals with your budget but they may not be on as grand of scale.

As for natural vs man made rocks my opinion is to go man made. Keep in mind there are very few natural rock pools in Southern California in comparison to man made.

Natural rock has a few drawbacks:
-You never really know the quality of the rock you choose, it may look fine from the outside but end up crumbling, discoloring or flaking down the road.
-They are extremely heavy which makes large rocks expensive purchase, deliver, move and set. They also place a huge dead load of weight on the pool structure that the engineering needs to accommodate.
-Leaks are possible in the voids between the rocks if special care is not taken to waterproof them.

Man made rocks can be made much lighter and integrated into the structural shell. Waterproofing isn't an issue and there is no limit to the design, size and creativity of the artisan. It is also relatively easy to incorporate a slide into the rock work and waterfalls can be placed wherever you choose.

The quality of rock work is very price dependent. There is no shortage of contractors to produce horrible looking fake rock and a quality jobs will gets very expensive.

As for maintenance I don't really see natural or man made having issues so long as proper waterproofing and multiple coats of a high quality primer and paint are used. I've seen paint jobs last over 20 years with little sign of wear.

I guess the bottom line is you really can't go wrong with either so long as you find a professional that does quality work.

My suggestion is to reach out to Liquid FX pools, Poseiden Pools and Bravo Construction. I believe all serve your area and I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the 3.

 

[bdavis466]

And for fun.... One is real and one is fake. Which is it???

 

[NorCalX]

Thanks for the feedback and referrals. I will try and reach out to them on Monday. PBs prefer calls during normal business hours right?

If I had to guess I would say the bottom picture is real because it has those small extra pieces that look like someone jammed them in there

 

[NorCalX]

Pool project may be hitting the termination phase.

We are getting bids but in our opinion they are coming in far too high (we have potentially 100k budgeted for pool and add on features and more set aside for landscaping and are still being sticker shocked).

We are getting the feeling the pool contractors have plenty of work for 2019 and are just throwing numbers at us based on the neighborhood we live in to see if we will bite. I give our budget to all PBs before they come for site inspections. I'm an honest guy and don't want to waste their time. Before they come out they give me rough numbers and know what I am looking for and assure me it can be done. After the visit I get bids out of whack and over the budget I gave in advance. And if you are curious no...it is not due to difficult site conditions like grading or elevation.

For example the pool equipment portion for one recent bid is 17k (fairly standard pentair stuff including automation ET8 IC60 CC520...only difference is 2 VS pumps instead of 1 because of water feature and 3 globrites).

We got our house at the bottom of the crash via a short sale and always joke we don't belong in the neighborhood. It was nice back then but it irks me that contractors inflate their bids like this because I want to do business and have a generous budget but I'm not insane.

We have seen this type of bidding with other projects so I guess I should be ready for it. When we first bought the house a contractor asked us for 17k to make a simple outdoor BBQ. Recently we replaced our HVAC system and had a contractor bid it at 20k and tacked on phantom fees (for example attic install $3k additional charge) for a standard 9k job.

Anyways...we are going to check a few more boxes before we decide if we terminate our plan. We have a hail mary shot with a local guy with a nice reputation for quality and budget but bad response times and scheduling (he was supposed to get back to me with a design in early Jan...his site visit was early December). We had removed him from our list but may just give him a call. We were told this is just how he is and you have to stay on top of him. At this point I can trade time for budget if it gets our dream project.

We are also considering reaching out to some AGP people just to install a no frills pool before we make our final decision but the wife and I have reached the extreme frustration phase.

 

[kimkats]

GURRRRRRRRRRRR but I feel and understand your pain as we too have faced the same thing. Bought low due to it being foreclosed and needed work in each room. Turn out it was all work we could do=SCORE! BUT when it came time for the new AC/heat unit......$$$$ over what other people would pay somewhere else. I too, went with a smaller company. The owner's wife was a teacher so understood I did NOT make that much money and spend quite a bit of it on my classroom kids!

Good luck and here is hoping things turn your way.

Kim

 

[santacruzpool]

I have experienced the exact issue you have. Some bids are sometimes crazy high just based on my neighborhood. Over the years we have had some bids that all over the place - especially on our pool, but the lower end bids were pretty close in the end - the high ones were almost double the low ones!

Have you thought about doing an Owner Build? The subs my pool builder used work all over Northern California - the Plumbing/Electrical Sub and Gunite/plaster sub were from Livermore, the Tile/Coping was from Tracy I think, and the excavation crew was from Gilroy. You are closer to most of them than I am down here in Santa Cruz! Now I am not sure I would recommend the plumbing/electrical guys, but our Gunite/Plaster crew was good, and the excavating crew was also top notch.

 

[NorCalX]

Thank you for the advice. The subs you mentioned are definitely in my area. I think right now the main issue is timing and demand in my area.

2 of the PBs i initially started with bowed out on their own because they were already booked through august and didn't want to over commit (they did this back in Dec).

With plenty of pool work going around there is little harm to the PB when bidding high...and i guess my neighborhood gives them the wrong impression in that area.

An OB is tempting for the control and cost but terrifying at the same time. I have zero construction or handyman skills. I botched a simple toilet flap repair last time i tried something on my own.

I spoke with a local OB with construction experience and he said he regretted it and will never do it again. Too hard to get subs for OB work when the PBs who can offer more are asking for them as well. I imagine that problem would be worse for me as PBs appear to be fully booked up.

 

[santacruzpool]

NorCalX - I understand the fear of OB.

After paying a good amount to have ours built by a pool builder I wouldn't hesitate to look at doing an owner build in the future. However, I have the benefit of hindsight, having seen our pool being built and now knowing all of the ins and outs so to speak. It wouldn't have been something I would have done originally either.

Peak building time and a good economy certainly aren't helping I am sure. Plus Northern California prices are crazy high for everything it seems.

We have some good friends who have an "above" ground pool that they built an entire deck around that makes it seem built in - that was something I contemplated when our bids started coming in at $100K plus range...

We had this one crazy builder who wouldn't even give us a ball park amount and insisted on his ideas and design with no input from us - I saw $$ signs in his eyes. He brought an old tattered 1970's, or 1980's, design book with one of his pool designs in it to back up how amazing he was as a designer and that we should just trust him. We were planning on a nice geometric pool with an autocover and he was proposing a free form pool with a huge grotto, a 500,000 btu heater (or 2 heaters!), water jets, lights, a huge spa under the grotto, floor cleaning that was his "proprietary design", and all sorts of stuff we didn't want. And that was just on the preliminary visit. He also refused to talk to my wife when she called to tell him we were going another direction...

 

[NorCalX]

We have some good friends who have an "above" ground pool that they built an entire deck around that makes it seem built in - that was something I contemplated when our bids started coming in at $100K plus range...

That idea is actually on the table for consideration right now

I have a ballpark quote for 15k to do a turn-key install of a doughboy oval 34x18 and put decking around it

I would have to be the GC but they have subs they usually work with and would help arrange everything

Before I started this project I would have laughed at the idea....but 15k is what everyone says a basic hot tub addition to a pool costs around here.

It puts things in perspective to see what it can buy...


Anyways, I'm making a 2nd pass at the designs we have and stripping different things to get costs down

After stripping the grotto and rock work (and crying on the inside) I can definitely get costs down but all that is left is a vanilla pool.

My wife is wondering if a vanilla non lagoon style pool is something we even want at that point...

The goal was a lagoon style pool and then spend some extra for a backyard where all the family and friends would want to come and enjoy with us. When I strip it down it is just a bleh hole in the ground. I know it is a nice hole in the ground because I'm controlling the design and engineering for min. levels of equipment/finish etc. but none of that shows in the aesthetics.

Our current design target is +/- 100 linear feet mild free-form with benches and a moderate sunshelf (at least 10x8) and pebble finish. I have already weeded out the low bids for that work (40k) and am left with bids ranging anywhere from 65k to 90k (yes 90k...not a typo) for that basic package (includes everything from dig to equipment etc.).

The current problem we are having is when we try and put something extra into it the budget gets blown to bits. I still think the worst one I saw was a 35k proposal for a simple 10 foot wide bleh waterfall that I never asked for in the first place. All we are asking for is a perimeter rock/coping to give it a lagoon feel (see below) but it has been a struggle of epic proportions to find.