Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc?

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

None of those numbers sound all too crazy. I'm a huge DIY kind of person, I went so far as to act as the general contractor on my own house. When looking at material for what you can buy it for and what a contractor charges you for its never really an apples to apples comparison. I had a very honest foundation contractor who told me flat out if I ordered the concrete it would cost me X amount. If he ordered the concrete for me it would cost me X amount plus about 20% for his mark up. Same concrete from the same delivery truck. Its rough to pay a lot of money for work you think you might be able to do. If you've gone as far as to dig the trench I'm sure you like to tackle things yourself.

Yeah, I'd really rather be doing this all myself. After our replacement/upgrade pool motor blew up twice last year, with $300+ literally going up in smoke, my wife wants warranties on the gear we're wanting. Now that we're talking $3000+ in equipment, I can see her point, notably on the heater. Definitely don't want THAT to stop working.

The PB said he would put flex PVC in if that's what I really wanted, but he wouldn't guarantee/warranty it. There's part of me thinks "since we're already doing the trench work, why not just go ahead and lay in & connect our own 2" flex PVC, leaving the PB some stubs to work with at the pad?"

I know the PB is going to mark things up, and I get that that is how they stay in business. Being charged $400 for poly pipe when flex PVC would cost me about $500 for 200 ft is a bit tough to stomach, especially when other PB's might be charging $200 or less for poly pipe. I might be even more annoyed if I knew how much it would cost to buy poly pipe myself... LOL

 

[mas985]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

So what was the reason again you aren't considering ridged PVC? Don't you normally blow out the lines and fill with pool anti-freeze anyway?

 

[CJadamec]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

IMO the black poly is a better choice in your neck of the woods. PVC be it flexible or ridged get brittle with age and cold weather. I've worked with PVC a lot on ships and in residential construction. Its a great material and easy to install but it isn't the perfect choice for all installations.
Chances are if your pool builder does a lot of work he is buying most or all of his plumbing from a contractor supply house and not shopping around like you or I would to get the cheapest price. That way he gets a consistent supply of good quality parts that may cost a lil more but he is comfortable staking his reputation on.
Im in the same boat as you on paying extra to have a PB install my oval pool and supply the heat pump. I read tons about doing the installation myself and I have the tools and equipment to do it with. At the end of the day tho I sleep a lil bit easier having a warranty to fall back on if there is a liner or installation issue. By doing the trenching yourself I'm sure you saved closed to 1000 dollars right there.

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

So what was the reason again you aren't considering ridged PVC? Don't you normally blow out the lines and fill with pool anti-freeze anyway?

We live in Wisconsin, so won't rigid PVC be more susceptible to problems in the winter? I don't know how far down we will be able to dig, maybe 2-3 feet tops? The area we have to work with is very narrow, so that doesn't help. Maybe I'm being too safety conscious about digging a very deep but narrow trench, which when I used to be an electrician running underground power pipes, was something of a major no-no to do. I'm pretty sure that OSHA won't be coming out to inspect our work though, so there's that.

As far as winterizing goes, yes, we do blow out the lines and fill the skimmer line with a couple gallons of anti-freeze (it's never been totally filled with anti-freeze). The return and deep end vac lines get blown out and then capped at the pool wall and at the pad.

 

[mas985]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

As far as winterizing goes, yes, we do blow out the lines and fill the skimmer line with a couple gallons of anti-freeze (it's never been totally filled with anti-freeze). The return and deep end vac lines get blown out and then capped at the pool wall and at the pad.

Then there should be no issues at all with any of the methods.

There are many on the forum that use ridged in your climate including Canada. My parents had it in their pool in Chicago for 30+ years without incidence. It just needs to be installed properly and the pool needs to closed for the winter properly but you should do that anyway no matter what pipe type you use. I don't think having flex changes anything other than making it a little easier for the installer but as you found out, poly still has the risk of connection/transition failures which is why I would not use it. Over the many years I have been on this forum, I am pretty sure I have read more about poly connection failures than I have about ridged PVC pipe failures (underground).

If still in doubt, you might want to talk with someone in your local city's building department. They would probably have recommendations on what is best to use in your area and also how deep to bury it.


Also, I can't say all of these are relevant but you might want to read through some of them:

https://www.google.com/search?num=50&newwindow=1&q=Black+Poly+Pipe+leak+site%3Awww.troublefreepool.com&oq=Black+Poly+Pipe+leak+site%3Awww.troublefreepool.com&gs_l=serp.3...452139.456971.0.457127.11.11.0.0.0.0.106.532.6j2.8.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..5.0.0.HPVFTIvkxz4

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Then there should be no issues at all with any of the methods.

The only winterizing issue I could see is that digging down means having to have the pipe rise back up to connect at the pool. That effectively creates a U-shape in the plumbing from the pad pipes to the in-pool pipes, doesn't it? That would make it harder to blow out the lines, I would think, compared to the return & vac lines pretty much running horizontal at the pool wall. Blowing from the pad to the pool always empties those lines completely, but we can never be too sure about the skimmer line, which currently has a slight U-shape with the pipe going down, then 90's out to a horizontal pipe run.

There are many on the forum that use ridged in your climate including Canada. My parents had it in their pool in Chicago for 30+ years without incidence. It just needs to be installed properly and the pool needs to closed for the winter properly but you should do that anyway no matter what pipe type you use. I don't think having flex changes anything other than making it a little easier for the installer but as you found out, poly still has the risk of connection/transition failures which is why I would not use it. Over the many years I have been on this forum, I am pretty sure I have read more about poly connection failures than I have about ridged PVC pipe failures (underground).

I've read many of those threads as well, so this is one major knock against poly in my mind, not to mention that we're having to adapt from 1.5" pool wall & skimmer connections, to 2" pipes we'll be running.

If still in doubt, you might want to talk with someone in your local city's building department. They would probably have recommendations on what is best to use in your area and also how deep to bury it.

I don't see anything on their site, so I'll have to make some calls. Pools are much rarer up here, so it might not be easy to find?

 

[CJadamec]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

If your horizontal sections are below frost line any water that may get trapped there will never freeze. the horizontal run would have to be full of water for any water to be in the vertical sections where it might freeze.

There is no doubt that with any pipe (except maybe welded steel pipe) that joints and fittings are the weak links to the system. The frequency of problems heard may be more related to a higher percentage of pools being plumbed with black poly vs pvc. I will say right off I cant back that statement up and am just guessing that could be the case.

 

[mas985]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

If you blow out the lines first and air comes out the other end, then the only water that may be left in the lines would be at the lowest points. And then adding the anti-freeze would migrate to the lowest points as well so that should easily be taken care of.

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Started digging around the skimmer, and found that there is a 90 connected to the bottom of the skimmer, and the pipe runs horizontally out from there. It's 18" below the grade. I can't tell if it was buried in sand at that level, but there definitely is some wet sand down there. Lots of rocks too. Thankfully not much arbor vitae tree roots. I was VERY worried that I'd be having to chop the up as we dig down.

There was a spot on the poly pipe where there were 4 pipe clamps around the pipe, which I assume were from having to fix a leak in that spot. I bet that is where the skimmer line leak is coming from.

 

[mas985]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

One thought if you really wanted to or had to go with poly, would be to put an irrigation vault (cut out) right next to each pool port for easy access and inspection, then bring the poly up to the pad above ground level and make your connections there. That way you can always see the above ground connections, and the others are easily inspected. That is probably the only way I would feel good about using poly.

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Here's what I found, and a shot of how wide an area I have to work with.

Thats some sort of double ended barb coupling, with a pair of radiator hose clamps on each side to hold it.

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Do I even have enough room here to dig down 3-4'? I'd be digging 2-3' away from the pool wall, and would worry about my pool wall collapsing. The pool isn't very full right now, so there against the wall, so there's that.

 

[mas985]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

I not an expert of vinyl pools but physics would tell me the area would have to be fairly large before the wall would collapse. As long as you dig straight back, I don't think it would be an issue. If you dig close to the pool and parallel to it, it could be an issue.

How do the lines go back to the pad?

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

I not an expert of vinyl pools but physics would tell me the area would have to be fairly large before the wall would collapse. As long as you dig straight back, I don't think it would be an issue. If you dig close to the pool and parallel to it, it could be an issue.

We pretty much have to go parallel with the pool, but we might be able to go closer to the tree line than I previously thought. I might dig the deep end trench first, digging it 12' long, then connect the pipe to the wall and lay a 10' section, then fill in 8' so there is a 2' stub to work on. Rinse and repeat until we get to the end of the pool. This might be preferable than digging a trench the length of the pool and risk the wall collapsing.

How do the lines go back to the pad?

The old pad is behind the shed, and the pipe is run perpendicular to what I want to do, where the pipes curve out to the property line and run along the fence. We won't be able to dig those up, as the trees were planted over top of the pipes AFTER the pipes were laid.

As of right now, there are no lines and no pad laid in the new location (side of the house). We are literally starting over, from scratch, minus the pool wall & liner.

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Mark, looking at your signature really makes me question some of my choices for gear now... We have a slightly larger pool, yet are looking at a smaller heater (Raypack 266A) fueled by a largish LP tank. I think the filter issue has already been discussed to death in this thread or another one I recently started. No need to revisit that topic, but the heater plan isn't one we've researched much. I think the brand we want is a good one. Other than that, this is one thing we are trusting the PB on.

 

[mas985]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

The heater is for the spa only. I would never try to heat a pool with anything other than solar. Too expensive here.

 

[cowboycasey]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

Do I even have enough room here to dig down 3-4'? I'd be digging 2-3' away from the pool wall, and would worry about my pool wall collapsing. The pool isn't very full right now, so there against the wall, so there's that.

here is the best advice and what I used and worked great a ditch digger.. you can rent them and you can get one that will go down 3 to 4 feet and up to 6 inches wide... too easy

close to you
Trencher, 36" x 5" | Equipment Category | Madison, Wisconsin | Equipment, Construction, and Power Tool Rental

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

here is the best advice and what I used and worked great a ditch digger.. you can rent them and you can get one that will go down 3 to 4 feet and up to 6 inches wide... too easy

close to you
Trencher, 36" x 5" | Equipment Category | Madison, Wisconsin | Equipment, Construction, and Power Tool Rental

Thanks for the tip, but the width of the machine is about as wide as the space between the trees and the edge of the pool's coping. I also worry about the weight of the machine (half ton) putting force on the wall of the pool, such that it would push it OUT towards the water, rather than collapsing back in towards the trench. I think if we're going to do this, it's going to have to be dug by hand...

So I dug out the bottom of the skimmer, and found a galvanized 90 connected directly to the bottom of the skimmer, again with a radiator clamp. Should there be a straight piece going down before there is a 90 turn? and why are there two connection points at the bottom of the skimmer?

 

[mas985]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

If you are planning to keep the pipe at that depth, then you don't need to go any deeper. Just put a 90 right at the skimmer.

Skimmers usually have two ports, one goes to the pump and the other can be plumbed to a main drain or wall port for equalization (bypass).

 

[MitchRyan912]

Re: Digging up pipes & starting over: all new PVC, pump, filter, skimmer, heater, etc

If you are planning to keep the pipe at that depth, then you don't need to go any deeper. Just put a 90 right at the skimmer.

Looking at the elevation of the area where the pad is going to go, we may have to go deeper to maintain a level run, or run higher, then offset the pipes down to follow the slope of the hill near the pad. The PB wants to see the pipes come up in the middle of the 8' side of the pad, and there is about a 12" decline there compared to the elevation of the ground around the pool.

Skimmers usually have two ports, one goes to the pump and the other can be plumbed to a main drain or wall port for equalization (bypass).

Ah. Does it matter which port is used?