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Thread: Straddling the BBB conversion...

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Fresh water is in the pool after draining and professional muriatic acid cleaning to remove resistant purple haze and be rid of CYA levels exceeding 150 most of the summer. The only difference in protocol was replacing sand with glass media and using their once a month application of Enhance Summer stabilizer.

    All was going well with balancing the copper and calcium laden fresh fill following the typical pool supply store's BioGaurd "party line" (as I have with varying success over the years) until the TA/pH adjustment met erratic chlorine levels. You guessed it, orange staining and I turned to your website. There is no question I am fully converting to BBB once I unravel the mess I'm in.

    Following your directions, the ascorbic acid treatment erased the orange stain and I'm in that magic window now, waiting for the blue haze to lift and my new TF100 test kit to arrive via expedited UPS. Until then, I've been dosing the pool with Polyquat 60 every other day because I'm unwilling to release the puck fed chlorinator to full duty and I'm sure not shocking the water with dichloride.

    Is it okay to go "cold turkey" with the BBB program at this juncture and use the poolcalulator.com to determine bleach sanitization amounts?

    Following stats taken with test strips and verified by pool supply store earlier today (or yesterday now).

    pH 7.2
    TA 89
    FC .1
    TC .1
    CH 317
    CYA 40

    Thank you in advance for your advice and support.



    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    I don't see any problems with implementing TFPC methods and the use of regular liquid bleach as your primary sanitizer once you are completely done with the other treatments. So definitely follow the directions on the Magic's to ensure you're finished with that process. Afterwards, once you start to use bleach, you may have to watch your FC level closely for the first few days as residual Polyquat or other chemicals may tend to have an effect on FC in the beginning. Over time that should stabilize and the FC should remain more constant through the routine use of bleach. As for the readings above, I wouldn't take too much action on those right now simply because we don't place a lot of faith in test strips or pool store testing. Once you receive your TF-100, you'll be able to rely on your testing and adjust accordingly. Remember, once you have metals in the water they never really go away unless you replace the water. That may something you may wish to consider in the future if you can get 5K-worth of fresh water brought-in with no metals. That way you can get away from the sequestrant routine. Also, you mentioned the chlorinator. We normally don't recommend their use because tablets/pucks tend to drive-up CYA past manageable levels. If you stick to just regular liquid bleach (generic is fine) you'll be okay.

    Once you've completed the final treatments for stains, try to keep the FC steady at about 5-6 ppm to avoid an algae situation until your kit comes in. Hope this helps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the way JJ, welcome to TFP!
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Thanks, Pat.

    Clearly, from your post, I have much to still learn. Rest assured, before the week is out I will have gone through TFP's Pool School and hope to get a fairly good grasp on my new TF-100 system.

    I thought I was finished with the ascorbic acid process other than the expected brushing and vacuuming fallout, keeping the pH in the 7.0-7.2 range for the next week or so, and slowly adding bleach as my new sanitizer with an eye for renewed sequestrant application. Am I missing something?

    Just so that you know, it is my intention to remove those pucks and discontinue use of the chlorinator once the bleach sanitizing begins. That stated, I will always have to use a sequestrant due to high levels of copper in the only economical fresh water available. This is a very arid climate and I add at least an inch of water to top off my pool on a weekly basis.

    And thanks for the prompt support and warm welcome. So glad to have found a new home with sustainable and planet friendly solutions!
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Skitch makes a good point. We recommend using Pool Math which is within this site as we are able to assure that it is updated as necessary.

    I'm going to assume seldom, but I'll ask - what is the rain situation in your area? Is there any possibility of putting together a harvesting system to get water from your roof when it does rain into your pool? I ask because if your fill water is also high in copper and calcium you are going to continue to to have rising levels of them with a 1" fill every week.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skitch View Post
    Why use poolcalculator dotcom when there's a link to Pool Math at the top of this page?
    My error, I simply didn't see that link yet. Thanks for the reminder.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Jumpin' Joan's Avatar
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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    Skitch makes a good point. We recommend using Pool Math which is within this site as we are able to assure that it is updated as necessary.

    I'm going to assume seldom, but I'll ask - what is the rain situation in your area? Is there any possibility of putting together a harvesting system to get water from your roof when it does rain into your pool? I ask because if your fill water is also high in copper and calcium you are going to continue to to have rising levels of them with a 1" fill every week.
    Trust I'll be using the Pool Math link and it's comforting to know it will be updated by folks with hands on TPFC experience.

    As good an idea as that is on paper, harvesting rain water here offers a host of issues. The first being lack of rain http://www.lascruces-weather.com/wxrainsummary.php. The second being what is carried in that rain. Our monsoonal season's storms carry water-borne algae and pesticides when traveling long distances over agricultural areas. The third being logistics and risk of Nile Fever from storing any still water in this area.

    That stated, frequent water checks, chemistry adjustments, including routine application of sequestrants are a must. Sad but true.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Just a quick question, do you use a solar cover when the pools not in use? If not I would concender it as it greatly helps in water loss.

    Welcome to the forum Joan!

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    Just a quick question, do you use a solar cover when the pools not in use? If not I would concender it as it greatly helps in water loss.

    Welcome to the forum Joan!
    Thanks for the warm welcome, Lee.

    To answer your question, I did use a solar cover the first 3 years or so of this pool's life when my partner was still on the planet to help me with it (being the senior mini-mite that I was and continue to be).

    What we found was increased water temps which led to algae blooms (of every color imaginable) which led to copper loaded treatments and more chlorine which led to lessons on sequestrants and repetitive solar cover destruction. When the sand storms arrived (as they do every Spring), no matter how careful we were... the sand usually slipped back into the pool upon removal creating challenges of its own.

    Being the persistent wench, I pursued an automatic cover but the decking and irregular xeriscape precluded that endeavor.

    Sigh.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Hello Joan,
    I just wanted to say Hi, and Welcome you to TFP ,

    You are in very helpful and experienced hands here, and will hopefully love the TFP method as much as we do.

    Again Welcome, we are glad you're here. Have a fun, and safe Labor Day.
    24' Round x 4.5 ft deep AGP (15,200 Gallons), Vinyl Liner, Hayward Vari Flo XL Sand Filter- (model SP0714T1),
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, SLAM & the Chlorine/CYA CHART. Support this Site! TFP Totally Rocks.

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    Straddling "set back" questions...

    Apologies if I should have tagged this post on my previous thread but I just need two quick answers.

    A serious setback was sustained on my TFPC/BBB conversion plan today with the advent of an undeniable bacterial load just when my pool was clearing after successful ascorbic acid treatment and ready for its first measured splash of bleach. Apparently, application of my algae 60 inhibitor failed.

    pH 7.5
    TA 73
    FC 0
    TC 4.4
    CH 306
    CYA 36

    I know this site is not a fan of most if not all pool supply houses (and with good reason) but until my TF-100 test kit arrives and I have more time to process information I'm sure is in TPF's Pool School, I sought immediate local assistance to avoid further disaster near term.

    The rescue plan is underway: Thorough backwash/rinse complete, minor TA/pH adjustment with on hand BioGuard 100 in process, to be followed by application of calcium hypochlorite instead of dichlor powder (in an attempt to save CYA long term), and keeping my fingers crossed for a timely TF-100 delivery with "quick start guide."

    My questions are...

    Can I still seamlessly convert to the TFPC method once I receive the TF-100 testing kit (and can actually use it)?
    How long does it typically take to supercede pool supply chemical administration to get accurate testing?
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crackerjack4u View Post
    Hello Joan,
    I just wanted to say Hi, and Welcome you to TFP ,

    You are in very helpful and experienced hands here, and will hopefully love the TFP method as much as we do.

    Again Welcome, we are glad you're here. Have a fun, and safe Labor Day.
    Thank you, Crackerjack4u (love that handle). It's been a rough day but hopefully a better one tomorrow. Safe holiday to you as well.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling "set back" questions...

    JJ, if you are ready to stick to the TFPC methods, rather than putting anything else in your pool, simply add regular liquid bleach to increase your FC to about 5-6. That's it. Don't add anything else to your water other than bleach until your TF-100 arrives, otherwise you could be adding stuff that is not required. We can't trust anything but readings from a TF-100 (or Taylor K-2006), so that would be best right now. Hopefully you have a simple OTO tester to hold you over so you can ensure FC is at 5. If you can't do that, then just add about 1/2 bleach to your water each evening to hold you over until the kit arrives. As for this thread, the MODS may chose to merge it later. We'll let them handle that as needed.
    Pat (a.k.a. Texas Splash) ~ My Pool: Viking Fiberglass; 17,888 Gal; Waterway Supreme 2-sp/2-hp pump; Hayward Ctg filter; TF-100 w/ Speed Stir
    Vital Links: POOL SCHOOL, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, RECOMMENDED CHEMICALS, Poolmath Calculator, SLAM, Chlorine/CYA CHART.
    If you enjoyed your TFP experience, please consider donating to Support TFP!

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    Re: Straddling "set back" questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Splash View Post
    JJ, if you are ready to stick to the TFPC methods, rather than putting anything else in your pool, simply add regular liquid bleach to increase your FC to about 5-6. That's it. Don't add anything else to your water other than bleach until your TF-100 arrives, otherwise you could be adding stuff that is not required. We can't trust anything but readings from a TF-100 (or Taylor K-2006), so that would be best right now. Hopefully you have a simple OTO tester to hold you over so you can ensure FC is at 5. If you can't do that, then just add about 1/2 bleach to your water each evening to hold you over until the kit arrives. As for this thread, the MODS may chose to merge it later. We'll let them handle that as needed.
    SO wish I had seen your note about 2 1/2 hours ago.

    Alas, it was a day of error but I'll get a fresh start when the TF-100 comes in (which now looks to be by the end of this week due to the holiday). Hopefully, I'll have had a chance to take advantage of the TFP Pool School by then too.

    The good news is the TA booster is primarily baking soda, the sanitizing agent is an unstabilized chlorine, my chlorinator is no longer in use, and my pool supply owner is more than willing to take back any unwanted supplies. So, I guess the day wasn't a total loss but it sure was frustrating.

    No worries on the relocated thread... I learned from that too.

    Take care.
    JJ
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    hi JJ, I think you might be making the TFP methods more complicated than they are. the biggest maintenance item in pools is keeping them algae free. we use chlorine to sanitize the pool, but instead of using pucks, etc as the delivery mechanism, we use bleach/liquid chlorine since it provides chlorine only without adding stabilizer and/or CH. that's all. the other thing we do, is rely on accurate testing to add chemicals to our pools instead of just random amounts. Basically, we use our tests to confirm the current CYA amount and dose chlorine based on that level using the CYA/FC chart (see my link).

    so there are no concerns about converting, etc. for now, you need to focus on keeping your FC levels up until your test kit arrives and please stop randomly dumping pool store chemicals into your pool. once your test kit arrives, you can run a full set of tests and we can help you with the next steps, but for now, please save your money and sanity and just stick to adding bleach.
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaninFLA View Post
    hi JJ, I think you might be making the TFP methods more complicated than they are. the biggest maintenance item in pools is keeping them algae free. we use chlorine to sanitize the pool, but instead of using pucks, etc as the delivery mechanism, we use bleach/liquid chlorine since it provides chlorine only without adding stabilizer and/or CH. that's all. the other thing we do, is rely on accurate testing to add chemicals to our pools instead of just random amounts. Basically, we use our tests to confirm the current CYA amount and dose chlorine based on that level using the CYA/FC chart (see my link).

    so there are no concerns about converting, etc. for now, you need to focus on keeping your FC levels up until your test kit arrives and please stop randomly dumping pool store chemicals into your pool. once your test kit arrives, you can run a full set of tests and we can help you with the next steps, but for now, please save your money and sanity and just stick to adding bleach.
    Hi Dan ~

    You're absolutely right. I'm often guilty of overthinking things and when I don't understand something, it never sticks. I've also had a long history of questionable guidance from my pool supply house who rarely seemed to be able to explain things to my satisfaction but was quick to sell me product and then give me contradictory instructions (vs. the labeling) for use. Some results were positive, some not, some caused more issues. And nearly all of them increased CYA, CH, and my frustration. With the exception of employing their mechanical staff, our days are over.

    That stated, in only a few days of investigating this worthy and informative site, I now have a lot more confidence and no small amount of hope for the future of this pool. As I see it, the TFPC method really IS as basic as it is sustainable and I'm more than eager to get on with it.

    The pool and its equipment appear to be stable at the moment and my TF-100 kit should arrive tomorrow or Friday. If all goes as expected, I'll be posting photos of the pool with what I hope are accurate readings (due to my initial uses of the kit) along with what I'm sure are the usual complement of questions. Any open long term issues regarding unavoidable environmental impacts and a rather short list of ongoing problems will be addressed thereafter because I do keep this pool open year round.

    Thanks for the support, Dan. It's truly appreciated.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpin' Joan View Post

    You're absolutely right. I'm often guilty of overthinking things and when I don't understand something, it never sticks. I've also had a long history of questionable guidance from my pool supply house who rarely seemed to be able to explain things to my satisfaction but was quick to sell me product and then give me contradictory instructions (vs. the labeling) for use. Some results were positive, some not, some caused more issues. And nearly all of them increased CYA, CH, and my frustration.

    Please know that will Not happen here. If you have a question, Ask. If the answer is not explained to Your "satisfaction", please do not hesitate to say so, so it can be explained differently, and as often as necessary, to ensure you understand the answer completely, know all the ins and outs, and ups and downs, Before you put something into your pool.

    That's why we are all here is to learn, and to teach what we've learned in order to help others. Have a wonderful day .
    24' Round x 4.5 ft deep AGP (15,200 Gallons), Vinyl Liner, Hayward Vari Flo XL Sand Filter- (model SP0714T1),
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, SLAM & the Chlorine/CYA CHART. Support this Site! TFP Totally Rocks.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crackerjack4u View Post
    Please know that will Not happen here. If you have a question, Ask. If the answer is not explained to Your "satisfaction", please do not hesitate to say so, so it can be explained differently, and as often as necessary, to ensure you understand the answer completely, know all the ins and outs, and ups and downs, Before you put something into your pool.

    That's why we are all here is to learn, and to teach what we've learned in order to help others. Have a wonderful day .
    Hey Crackerjack4u ~

    Even before the arrival of my TF100 test kit and posting any related questions about chemistry corrections, I've already received a clear explanation why I should discontinue use of a catalyst (mandated by my new glass filter media's manufacturer). I even sent an email to their UK research and development team and have yet to receive an answer... not exactly endearing.

    So looking forward to learning enough to be able to help others one fine day. For the near term, I'm just happy to be a promising student.

    Sweet days to you too!
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    You GO!!!! Girl. See there, you're teaching already, and can now explain things to the UK company. There is so much important and interesting information to learn here, and so many smart cookies to teach it. There's not one day that's gone by that I've not learned something new here.
    24' Round x 4.5 ft deep AGP (15,200 Gallons), Vinyl Liner, Hayward Vari Flo XL Sand Filter- (model SP0714T1),
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School, RECOMMENDED LEVELS, SLAM & the Chlorine/CYA CHART. Support this Site! TFP Totally Rocks.

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpin' Joan View Post
    Hey Crackerjack4u ~

    Even before the arrival of my TF100 test kit and posting any related questions about chemistry corrections, I've already received a clear explanation why I should discontinue use of a catalyst (mandated by my new glass filter media's manufacturer). I even sent an email to their UK research and development team and have yet to receive an answer... not exactly endearing.

    So looking forward to learning enough to be able to help others one fine day. For the near term, I'm just happy to be a promising student.

    Sweet days to you too!
    its great that you have the desire to be knowledgeable about your pool! you will very quickly learn just how simple pool maintenance is when you are armed with the knowledge and ability to accurately test your pool. The best solution to any problem is usually the simplest, which is the TFP method. In a few weeks you will be chuckling to yourself about all the "things" you did to your pool to try and make it clear. The pool store tries to make pool chemistry sound really complicated, when its not. cant wait to see your test results from the TF100. we will give you recommendations, but KEEP asking questions until everything makes sense.

    once your pool numbers look good, really the only ongoing items are adding chlorine/bleach to the pool every day and then testing and adjusting pH (1-3 times per week, depending on the pool). some cheap bleach and muriatic acid is going to be 99% of what you need for your pool. which means never having to go to the pool store again!!!
    Dan
    9,000 gallon in-ground Saltwater pool, plaster, cartridge filer, 1.0 hp pump, Hayward T-15 SWCG, TF-100
    Pool School - Chlorine / CYA Chart; Pool School - Test Kits Compared;

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    Re: Straddling the BBB conversion...

    Quote Originally Posted by DaninFLA View Post
    ... its great that you have the desire to be knowledgeable about your pool! you will very quickly learn just how simple pool maintenance is when you are armed with the knowledge and ability to accurately test your pool. The best solution to any problem is usually the simplest, which is the TFP method. In a few weeks you will be chuckling to yourself about all the "things" you did to your pool to try and make it clear. The pool store tries to make pool chemistry sound really complicated, when its not. cant wait to see your test results from the TF100. we will give you recommendations, but KEEP asking questions until everything makes sense.

    once your pool numbers look good, really the only ongoing items are adding chlorine/bleach to the pool every day and then testing and adjusting pH (1-3 times per week, depending on the pool). some cheap bleach and muriatic acid is going to be 99% of what you need for your pool. which means never having to go to the pool store again!!!
    Ha! I'm already chuckling at myself.

    After finishing the first read of Pool School (and a thorough read it was with lots of notes), I found out I actually knew more than I thought... just using a myriad of "chain reaction products and applications," the worst being dichlor shock and copper based algaecide. I've also practiced using PoolMath (knowing my test strip numbers are more than suspect). Even so, the first additions would only be 10 oz. of chlorine and 12 oz. of baking soda. The real truth will be told when I receive my TF100 kit and finally figure that out.

    In the meantime, I'm shopping for quality bleach today while I wait for Pony Express to deliver my kit. Doing the happy dance here.
    13 yr. old 5000 ga. inground fiberglass pool filtered by multi-port StaRite housing 300 lbs. of glass media and powered by a 1 hp single speed pump. City water supply is aquifer based, heavily laden with copper and calcium. Drought restrictions are in place. TFPC method supported by TF-100 test kit and Taylor SpeedStir.

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