Hi all, thanks for letting me joint this site of knoledgeable people in the pool and spa world. This is my third spa in 30 years and I have never had any water chemistry issues that werent easily solvable. I have a 2.5 year old Sundance Altamar spa at 390 gallons with UV light. I will say my problem might be related to the fact we have had about 40 inches of rainfall in the last 5 months that may have changed my well water chemistry. My tap water in the past has tested at 5.9 PH and <10 ppm Alk and <10 ppm CH . Tap water tested last week showed 6.3 Ph , 16ppm Alk ,16ppm CH , .10ppm total iron, .20 ppm copper. My house tap water is corrected using Neutra 7 chemical injection that makes my Ph 7.0 . I dont use the corrected tap water to fill the spa. I fill the spa through my irrigation (untreated) high volume fill. My problem started about 4 months ago and I was using Pristine Blue that had always worked well for me. I worked with their chemist to find out why my water kept turning blue at the water line and filter. Chemist said copper was trying to jump out of solution ? They thought PH might have been out of whack but using test strips and local spa place water test did not show that . After 2 water changes and a lot of tub cleaning to get rid of the blue staining I gave up and decided to switch to Chlorine which I have never used before. Now after 9 weeks and 7 water changes and a very thorough cleaning each time I cannot get water to balance out. My latest water test before adding any chems are PH 6.3,Alk 16ppm,CH 16ppm, .10 ppmiron and .20 copper. Before I had problems I would need to add about 20 TBSP of Alk increaser and a small amout of PH increaser and my water was great and stayed stable. Now if I add 3 TBSP of Alk increaser that gets my Alk to about 32 ppm and my PH goes over 8.0 . My most recent fill was 4 days ago and I have added 10 Tsp of PH lower (dry acid) and Ph just seems to be going higher. After about 4 days of this high PH my water is still clear but the tub walls,and plumbing turn a light tan color that requires a spa flush to clean out plumbing and extensive cleaning of the shell and filter (about 4 hours worth) . I read online that light tan scum might be either excess calcium or gypsum coming out of the solution because of high PH. I fill my spa with and inline filter. I have read on this site about borates and with the previous 2 months of reading my head is spinning with so much information and some being conflicting. Also the tub seems to consume chlorine, but im not sure as I havent used it before. I can put in 1 Tsp and the next day levels seem low. Is it normal to have to put in chlorine 3 times a week? I use test strips and I know they arent great but my last water test and the test strips were pretty well in agreement. Im about to drain this a put it away for this summer as im tired of cleaning and draining all the time. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated . If I need to add any info let me know. Thanks again ,Bret
Alkalinity and PH problems
- Thread starter Cape cruiser
- Start date
There is a lot going on here.
1) Strips and stores are extremely inaccurate when it comes to testing. You cannot correct something if you do not know the actual numbers. Get a good, drop based test kit
2) Has your tub ever had the plumbing purged with AhhSome? If not, I highly recommend you do so. Starting with a clean tub makes things a lot easier.
3) Forget all this talk about gypsum coming out of solution, and excess calcium. While that *could* happen, based on how you have been managing your tub, Occam's Razor tells me you have a biological infection in the tub.
4) You mention you added "teaspoons" of chlorine. I take it you are using granulated chlorine (DiChlor). If so, you really need to understand the relationship between CYA and Chlorine. If you keep using granulated chlorine, things are very quickly going to get out of balance, and your chlorine is going to become less and less effective.
5) Yes, hot tub requires chlorine to be added on a fairly regular basis.
6) Tubs also require acid more so than a pool, as aeration drives pH up. Dry Acid is OK-ish, but it can harm your heater. You really want to use liquid acid.
I am going to put what I do with my tub, so you can see what an easy regiment looks like.
Purge tub with AhhSome, drain, clean and refill
Add CH otherwise I get foaming
Test and add acid to get the pH to 7.5 or so.
Add granulated chlorine to get Cl to about 5 ppm
Test every day, adding acid and dry chlorine as necessary, checking CYA as well. When CYA is 30 ppm or so, stop using granulated chlorine and switch to bleach.
After about a week to 10 days my pH and TA have come into balance, and are pretty stable.
At this point it becomes test Cl and pH 3-4 times a week.
Add bleach and/or acid as necessary
Add bleach after each use as well
Once a week or so, test CYA to make sure it is still where it needs to be. If not, use granulated chlorine to bring it back up;
1) Strips and stores are extremely inaccurate when it comes to testing. You cannot correct something if you do not know the actual numbers. Get a good, drop based test kit
2) Has your tub ever had the plumbing purged with AhhSome? If not, I highly recommend you do so. Starting with a clean tub makes things a lot easier.
3) Forget all this talk about gypsum coming out of solution, and excess calcium. While that *could* happen, based on how you have been managing your tub, Occam's Razor tells me you have a biological infection in the tub.
4) You mention you added "teaspoons" of chlorine. I take it you are using granulated chlorine (DiChlor). If so, you really need to understand the relationship between CYA and Chlorine. If you keep using granulated chlorine, things are very quickly going to get out of balance, and your chlorine is going to become less and less effective.
5) Yes, hot tub requires chlorine to be added on a fairly regular basis.
6) Tubs also require acid more so than a pool, as aeration drives pH up. Dry Acid is OK-ish, but it can harm your heater. You really want to use liquid acid.
I am going to put what I do with my tub, so you can see what an easy regiment looks like.
Purge tub with AhhSome, drain, clean and refill
Add CH otherwise I get foaming
Test and add acid to get the pH to 7.5 or so.
Add granulated chlorine to get Cl to about 5 ppm
Test every day, adding acid and dry chlorine as necessary, checking CYA as well. When CYA is 30 ppm or so, stop using granulated chlorine and switch to bleach.
After about a week to 10 days my pH and TA have come into balance, and are pretty stable.
At this point it becomes test Cl and pH 3-4 times a week.
Add bleach and/or acid as necessary
Add bleach after each use as well
Once a week or so, test CYA to make sure it is still where it needs to be. If not, use granulated chlorine to bring it back up;
- Jun 1, 2018
- 14,345
- Pool Size
- 26000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
+1
You need a Taylor k2006 or tf100
Ahhsome Purge then
www.google.com
Also see
FC/CYA Levels
&
Pool Care Basics
You need a Taylor k2006 or tf100
Ahhsome Purge then
How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?
If you have a question about any information within this Sticky, please start a new thread for yourself where you will receive very quick responses to your specific questions. Thank you! Introduction There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and...
www.google.com
FC/CYA Levels
&
Pool Care Basics
Thanks for the reply phone dave. I see you are in Jersey,I lived there for 52 years. I will get drop test kit ordered. I have never used Ahhsome but every refill I used either Total cleanse or liesure time spa flush. (used total cleanse 3 times in 3 weeks). Its hard for me to believe that something is growing in the tub. Odd thing 2 days ago I was getting frustrated with this issue and added 4 tsp of dry acid and PH finnaly dropped to 7.0 and Ta went down to about 20 and the light tan scum below to water line went away. Are you saying I just need to balace the PH and let TA fall wherever it is? This is odd because when using Pristine blue I never had any issues with PH and TA and only used a tiny amount of chlorine once a week (1-2 ppm and using UV light). I always had crystal clear water that was balanced. I need to get my well water tested at the county next week. Two weeks ago I used local pool place and tested my water several times slowly adding chems a little at a time. When I get TA up to 32ppm my PH was 7.4,anthing over 32 ppm my PH goes over 8.0 and that is with no chlorine added yet. I am going to drain the tub again this weekend and leave it empty for a week or so to get my well water tested and order some liquid acid and Ahhsome and a drop test kit that Mdragger88 recomended. Its odd that all these years using Pristine Blue that I only needed to check and test tub water once a week and a small amout of chlorine and then shock after using it. I really think my well water has some major changes . My well is only 65 foot deep and my pump is at 35 feet and I have water in casing at 12 feet. My neighbor has a basement which is rare around here and has 3 sump pumps and his main pump pumps 28K gallons of water in 24 hours,yes thats 28 thousand per day. I greatly appreciate you responding with good suggestions. Thanks again and I will report back with my findings. Bret
Thanks for the reply Mdragger88,I was waiting for someone to recommend a test kit so I will get that ordered shortly. I have also read "how to use chlorine" Thanks again and I hope I get this sorted out soon. Bret+1
You need a Taylor k2006 or tf100
Ahhsome Purge then
Also seeHow do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?
If you have a question about any information within this Sticky, please start a new thread for yourself where you will receive very quick responses to your specific questions. Thank you! Introduction There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and...
FC/CYA Levels
&
Pool Care Basics
Can anyone recommend if the Tailor K2006 or TF 100 drop test kit is better? Thanks, Bret
From what I read they were very similar. I bought the TF-Pro because I'm a 40-year-old nerd who grew up watching Mr. Wizard and always thought magnetic lab mixing stirrers were cool as heck. In hindsight, I also like the foam cut out case that the Pro came with more than the plastic cases the cheaper kits come with. But all three are totally usable if you want to save a few bucks. I am extremely satisfied with the kit, and my testing is dramatically more consistent (which strongly implies accuracy, because I'm (a) getting repeatable results, and (b) everything is staying clean and stable like I want) than either my strips or the printouts I was getting from the pool/spa shop.
I will add, while I cannot speak to the Taylor instructions because I haven't used them, I thought the testing instructions in the TF kit were exceptionally clear and easily understood for someone who had never done proper pool chemistry before. That said, the reagents are the same in both—so you can get those instructions on this website. But I find the laminated cards the TF kit came with very convenient.
Didn't even catch the rest of your questions up top. I agree with most of phonedave's comments so I won't repeat them, but two things jump out:
(1) If you haven't read the sticky thread on chlorine in spas, it is really an extraordinarily good overview. It doesn't cover everything in great detail, but I would suggest reading it a few times over if it doesn't all sound like it makes sense. How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?
(2) Borates are freaking awesome. Adding about 50 ppm of borates (I used Gentle Spa but I hear you can use borax if you want) almost entirely eliminated my PH instability issues.
(1) If you haven't read the sticky thread on chlorine in spas, it is really an extraordinarily good overview. It doesn't cover everything in great detail, but I would suggest reading it a few times over if it doesn't all sound like it makes sense. How do I use Chlorine in my Spa (or pool)?
(2) Borates are freaking awesome. Adding about 50 ppm of borates (I used Gentle Spa but I hear you can use borax if you want) almost entirely eliminated my PH instability issues.
Thanks Zothor, I need to read that again. I will probably get more out of it the second time. Thanks for replying
Total Cleanse is made by the same company as AhhSome. Not sure if it is exactly the same product or not, but @Ahhsomeguy should be able to tell you. The question is, are you following the directions? Adding the product, letting the jet runs, wiping away any scum, etc.
Pristine Blue is apparently just copper. Copper is not a sanitizer despite what Pristine Blue says. And "Smart" chlorine, if it is what I think it is (similar to the Frog system) is something to avoid.
Here is the thing about chlorine. Chlorine is in your water, doing it's sanitizing thing. When it finds something that needs killing, it combines with that thing, forming a Combined Chloramine. Then the Combined Chloramine react with the remaining chlorine to oxidize and be removed. Chlorine does not turn your hair green or smell. The Combined Chloramines do. It seems counterintuitive, but if your tub smells of "chlorine" it is likely you do not have enough chlorine in it.
Your well water should not really have much of an impact once you get things balanced. TA acts as a buffer to pH and will keep it from moving around wildly, but the "correct" value to get TA at is a bit of an art (not a definite number from a chart). The pH in a hot tub will drift upwards due to the jets, and liquid acid (which is just Muriatic Acid you can get from a pool store, or from Home Depot - they keep it in the paint section) brings it down. You can try to force the balance if you know what your balanced levels usually are, but I find it too much of a PIA and not worth the effort. My process pretty much boils down to adding 1 oz of acid a day for 7 days and then things are pretty much settled (sometimes 10 days, sometimes 5 - this is why we test).
You can use Borax, but borax will also raise your pH so you have to add acid to counteract it.
You can get lab or food grade boric acid from a variety of places, which will just add borates and not mess require the addition of acid. Just make sure it is lab or food grade. Other types, such as for insect control, may have things in it such as attractants, anti clumping agents, or colorants that you do not want in your spa or pool.
Duda Diesel is a good source for boric acid.
Borates will help to "lock in" your pH. But it will lock it in at whatever level it is at when you add the borates. So get the pH where you want it, THEN add borates.
Thanks phonedave for the info. Do I need to get my TA up to 50ppm and then balance PH ? If so about 5 refills back I brought my TA up to >100 and used a whole bottle of dry cid and it still didnt come down . I have read on here that it would fine to get TA at 50ppm. I guess the liquid acid would be better to use . My last refill I brought the TA up to 40 ppm and used 15 tsp of dry acid (over 3 days) until PH finally came down but then my TA went below 20 ppm. Three months ago my TA was 150 and PH was 7.5 and CH was 150 and would stay stable with very minor weekly adjustments,and only adding chlorine 1time per week and after each use. Something drastically changed. Thanks again.
- Jun 1, 2018
- 14,345
- Pool Size
- 26000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
The tf100/ pro & the k2006/k2006c use the same exact Taylor reagents. Either one is just as accurate as the other.
The tftestkits contain larger amounts of the reagents that homeowners use most so they are generally a better value. They also guarantee the reagents are fresh.
Total cleanse is the same thing as Ahhsome. I have asked him previously. Just a different product line for a different market & its purple instead of blue.
When your ta is in the 40/50/60 range & you’re lowering ph only use enough acid to get ph in the higher 7’s as to not have such an impact on ta.
There is no perfect ph. Any ph in the 7’s is fine. Even hanging around at 8.0 for a bit is ok
Some find they need to adjust their circulation pump intervals and/or adjust their water level to prevent so much turbulence during standby operation to help reduce their ph rise frequency some.
If you intend to use borates be sure to track them in
PoolMath so it can calculate your acid additions correctly as borate’s presence means more acid is needed to do the same job when lowering ph.
I tend to add boric acid once I get ta to 60. It lowers ph a little more then I am right where I want to be.
*note- dichlor is acidic & lowers ph & subsequently ta. Pristine extra is dichlor.
I suspect you may not have been taking those effects into account which led to tanking ta & causing ph instability.
The bather load is quite large in a spa - akin to having a frat party in your pool every time you use it. Think people soup…
For this reason you must dose fc accordingly to account for your intended batherload beforehand to ensure your fc never falls below minimum for your cya at any time/before your next test/dose & also account for standby fc losses when the tub is not in use. You should adhere to the
FC/CYA Levels whether you use copper/minerals/uv/ozone or not.
A hot tub is its own living ecosystem that requires adequate sanitation around the clock to prevent invisible nasties from proliferating rapidly.
Clear water does not = sanitary. Person to person transmission of pathogens is a very real risk with undersanitized water.
www.troublefreepool.com
The tftestkits contain larger amounts of the reagents that homeowners use most so they are generally a better value. They also guarantee the reagents are fresh.
Total cleanse is the same thing as Ahhsome. I have asked him previously. Just a different product line for a different market & its purple instead of blue.
When your ta is in the 40/50/60 range & you’re lowering ph only use enough acid to get ph in the higher 7’s as to not have such an impact on ta.
There is no perfect ph. Any ph in the 7’s is fine. Even hanging around at 8.0 for a bit is ok
Some find they need to adjust their circulation pump intervals and/or adjust their water level to prevent so much turbulence during standby operation to help reduce their ph rise frequency some.
If you intend to use borates be sure to track them in
PoolMath so it can calculate your acid additions correctly as borate’s presence means more acid is needed to do the same job when lowering ph.
I tend to add boric acid once I get ta to 60. It lowers ph a little more then I am right where I want to be.
*note- dichlor is acidic & lowers ph & subsequently ta. Pristine extra is dichlor.
I suspect you may not have been taking those effects into account which led to tanking ta & causing ph instability.
The bather load is quite large in a spa - akin to having a frat party in your pool every time you use it. Think people soup…
For this reason you must dose fc accordingly to account for your intended batherload beforehand to ensure your fc never falls below minimum for your cya at any time/before your next test/dose & also account for standby fc losses when the tub is not in use. You should adhere to the
FC/CYA Levels whether you use copper/minerals/uv/ozone or not.
A hot tub is its own living ecosystem that requires adequate sanitation around the clock to prevent invisible nasties from proliferating rapidly.
Clear water does not = sanitary. Person to person transmission of pathogens is a very real risk with undersanitized water.
Alternative sanitizers and "chemical free" pools--The Truth!
Pool owners frequently seek out "Chemical Free" alternatives to pool water sanitization. Many claims in favor of these systems and methods have been made (usually by the manufacturers of such systems) often without adequate scientific proof of their efficacy. Let's take a look at them and see...
www.troublefreepool.com
I guess tf 100 pro would be good for me then . Would it be safe to buy from Amazon or could the reagents not be fresh ? Thanks for checking Total Cleanse. So I guess I need to get my TA around 50 and then use muriatic acid to lower PH in the hight 7's? I hope it works because I couldnt get it to come down with dry acid, I could use a whole bottle of that. Its pretty funny that swim university on the internet says dont worry about CYA cause its only for pools out in sun light and to get your TA over 150 and PH 7.4-7.6 which I guess is ok in the perfect world. Funny though as these readings were easy for me to get to 3 months ago,but not now. My circulation pump runs 9 hours ,is that too much ? My wife and I are the only ones that use the tub and we shower before use, Is 2 ppm FC that Sundance recommends ok or It needs to be tied to CYA level ? Its amazing that 30 years of using a spa we didnt have any illness or problems with lower chlorine levels. Thanks again Mdragger88
- Jun 1, 2018
- 14,345
- Pool Size
- 26000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
The tf100 & tfpro are only available at tftestkits.net
Some tubs have a happy/ more stable ph with ta at 50, some at 60 or even a little higher.
Ta Lower than 40 can cause ph instability (ph falling too low/acidic conditions).
In general, the higher the ta the faster the ph rise.
Also, be aware that pool store testing often reports “adjusted alkalinity” this is a fraction of your actual total alkalinity
www.troublefreepool.com
Dry acid & many of the pristine blue products add sulfates to your water which can damage your heater.
Fc should always be maintained above minimum for your cya if you wish for the water to remain sanitary even though many manufacturers of equipment & products still do not recognize the fc/cya relationship.
www.troublefreepool.com
Some tubs have a happy/ more stable ph with ta at 50, some at 60 or even a little higher.
Ta Lower than 40 can cause ph instability (ph falling too low/acidic conditions).
In general, the higher the ta the faster the ph rise.
Also, be aware that pool store testing often reports “adjusted alkalinity” this is a fraction of your actual total alkalinity
TA - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
Dry acid & many of the pristine blue products add sulfates to your water which can damage your heater.
Fc should always be maintained above minimum for your cya if you wish for the water to remain sanitary even though many manufacturers of equipment & products still do not recognize the fc/cya relationship.
CYA Chlorine Relationship - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
Thanks Mdragger88 that answered most of my questions right there. I will drain this weekend and when my test kit and chemicals come in I will try it again. Is it required to use Pool Math app or is there a way around that . I am blind in one eye and my close up vision in other isnt perfect. I can read well on a PC but using my iphone with app would be tough. Thanks again to all of you for taking the time to walk me through this .
Total Cleanse is essentially the same as Ahh-Some Gel. Using it 3 times correctly is a lot.
Are you using 1 level teaspoon for each 125 gallons of water? Are you turning all jets on high when adding the purple gel to a filled hot tub? If so, you should have no biofilms in the plumbing and jets or the tub was highly contaminated. Total Cleans is a very strong purge product. Typically, our gel is well over 20 times more effective than the other brand you mention.
Hope you were purging correctly. Please
Repost that you did follow the purge instructions.
Are you using 1 level teaspoon for each 125 gallons of water? Are you turning all jets on high when adding the purple gel to a filled hot tub? If so, you should have no biofilms in the plumbing and jets or the tub was highly contaminated. Total Cleans is a very strong purge product. Typically, our gel is well over 20 times more effective than the other brand you mention.
Hope you were purging correctly. Please
Repost that you did follow the purge instructions.
For what its worth, I couldn't keep my tub pH stable until I got my TA down around 60-70 ppm. I had been running 80-100 and the pH climbed above 8, every single time I used the tub (due to aeration). I've heard that TA lower than 50 ppm can cause it to go acidic too easy. I also find that fresh water is the most difficult to keep stable. After a couple weeks, it seems to become more stable.
- Jun 1, 2018
- 14,345
- Pool Size
- 26000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Poolmath is the only calculator we recommend using as its the most up to date and follows tfp recommendations - if you have any issues you can get help here quickly as well. There’s a dedicated subforum for poolmath.
you can either use the app
or the old web page here
This link is also at the bottom of every tfp page.
the app is available for windows computers & chromebooks as well as iPhones, android phones, ipads, android tablets & kindle tablets.
With the app there are lots more features & you can save all your logs if you go for the subscription ($8 or$9/yr) which is really helpful. (Click my avatar/pic to see my logs)
Without a subscription it just saves your most recent log.
You can’t do that with the webpage version unfortunately.
you can either use the app
or the old web page here
PoolMath
Discover the calculator behind the perfect pool, PoolMath. Dealing with pools has allowed TFP to become the original authors of the best calculator on the net.
www.troublefreepool.com
the app is available for windows computers & chromebooks as well as iPhones, android phones, ipads, android tablets & kindle tablets.
With the app there are lots more features & you can save all your logs if you go for the subscription ($8 or$9/yr) which is really helpful. (Click my avatar/pic to see my logs)
Without a subscription it just saves your most recent log.
You can’t do that with the webpage version unfortunately.