title says it all! My wife has been trying to establish an aquatic ecosystem (freshwater) with balanced chemistry between plants and fish and is having trouble. I can tell that some of the water chemistry is related to what is discussed on this site (ph balancing in particular, though obviously with different targets) and I thought it likely someone lurking here knows a bunch and could be a resource.
Any aquarium nuts on this site?
- Thread starter trivetman
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I tried doing so a number of years ago and I’m not sure it’s possible in a closed system like an indoor aquarium. At some point fish waste just builds up and needs to be removed either through a filter or water replacement. Perhaps having it outdoors might be a different scenario with UV exposure? Small lakes and ponds don’t have special filtering systems, but maybe they are much larger and can be self-sustaining because of that.
- Jun 1, 2018
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I believe @Dirk has an aquarium & he’s kind of a nut 
does that count?
does that count?
arvil
Well-known member
At my old house, I had a 10 gallon tank, moved here in 2002, changed to 20 gallon at about the same time I got my AG pool. Did OK, but not great. Aquarium chemistry was not really a thing in those days. Discovered www.fishlore.com forum and the aq.uarium wiki a few years ago. The forum got me into the chemistry which is as important as pool chemistry.,.
The main thing is yeah you can adjust pH to suit the fish but you have to do that every water change, it can be kinda hard on the fish and plants. Better to select fish that are naturally accustomed to your local water. But also select fish that get along, male betas just don’t get along with anybody.
Do get the API master test kit, then buy individual reagents as needed. The important chemistry is the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates cycle. Fish waste, dead plant matter, old food produces ammonia. Ammonia is bad. The good news is that there is beneficial bacteria that eats ammonia turning it into nitrites. Plants eat ammonia, too. Nitrites are bad. The good news is that there is also BB that eats nitrites and makes nitrates, not so bad. Do water changes to reduce nitrates. Sewer plants work exactly the same way.
I bought some plants from PetSmart, but, they came in plastic tubes with a gel, no water, didn’t do so well. Got a couple from PetsPlus, which were growing in an aquarium, and they are thriving very well. The trick is they need to be growing submersed from the get-go. The important thing is, don’t just buy a bunch of fish, plop them into a tank and expect success. The tank needs to be cycled first, allowing the beneficial bacteria to grow in proportion to the fish load. As it happens, two test that are important are carbonate hardness (the same as TA here, and calcium hardness. The test kit doesn’t include those tests. I actually use my TA and CH tests for my aquarium from tftkits, same test. Then select your fish and plants according to your results for pH, TA, and CH.
Do join a forum and ask questions, they are a bunch of helpful folks just like here. There’s more to it that I didn’t mention here, but I did’t want to fill up a book here. Remember, you are creating a complete ecosystem here.
The main thing is yeah you can adjust pH to suit the fish but you have to do that every water change, it can be kinda hard on the fish and plants. Better to select fish that are naturally accustomed to your local water. But also select fish that get along, male betas just don’t get along with anybody.
Do get the API master test kit, then buy individual reagents as needed. The important chemistry is the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates cycle. Fish waste, dead plant matter, old food produces ammonia. Ammonia is bad. The good news is that there is beneficial bacteria that eats ammonia turning it into nitrites. Plants eat ammonia, too. Nitrites are bad. The good news is that there is also BB that eats nitrites and makes nitrates, not so bad. Do water changes to reduce nitrates. Sewer plants work exactly the same way.
I bought some plants from PetSmart, but, they came in plastic tubes with a gel, no water, didn’t do so well. Got a couple from PetsPlus, which were growing in an aquarium, and they are thriving very well. The trick is they need to be growing submersed from the get-go. The important thing is, don’t just buy a bunch of fish, plop them into a tank and expect success. The tank needs to be cycled first, allowing the beneficial bacteria to grow in proportion to the fish load. As it happens, two test that are important are carbonate hardness (the same as TA here, and calcium hardness. The test kit doesn’t include those tests. I actually use my TA and CH tests for my aquarium from tftkits, same test. Then select your fish and plants according to your results for pH, TA, and CH.
Do join a forum and ask questions, they are a bunch of helpful folks just like here. There’s more to it that I didn’t mention here, but I did’t want to fill up a book here. Remember, you are creating a complete ecosystem here.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,953
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I had a marine aquarium for decades and finally gave up about 10 years ago. I had a 75 gallon tank. I would not call it a successful endeavor. I enjoyed the tank and fish, but never "had it down" the entire time I had it. It would look great for up to months at a time, but would always eventually fail. I ended up with damsel fish, which was the only species that managed to survive my best [inadvertent] efforts to off them.
The smaller the tank, the harder it is to manage. The more volume, the more forgiving. I can't imagine trying to keep fish without a filter in any tank less than the size of a lake! Good luck.
I recommend you search for a forum that specializes in balanced chemistry aquariums, as I very much doubt anything we teach here would apply.
I did finally find a viable solution. A looping video on my giant TV! My aquarium never looked so good.
The smaller the tank, the harder it is to manage. The more volume, the more forgiving. I can't imagine trying to keep fish without a filter in any tank less than the size of a lake! Good luck.
I recommend you search for a forum that specializes in balanced chemistry aquariums, as I very much doubt anything we teach here would apply.
I did finally find a viable solution. A looping video on my giant TV! My aquarium never looked so good.
I've had many over the years, some more successful than others. Essentially, you have to treat it like a garden, and constantly tend to it 
The Nitrogen cycle is fairly straight forward. Fish Eat, waste is produced, and breaks down into Ammonia. The ammonia in turn is eaten by nitrifying bacteria, which excrete Nitrites (NO2), and then by other bacteria in to Nitrates (NO3). Plants and Algae like NO3, and consume it in to grow. Most people experience this as Algae...your tank goes green, because you're not getting rid of the Nitrates...which is why you are encouraged to clean the tank, vacuum up the poop, and change the water regularly (thereby diluting the nitrates again).
Generally, the biggest mistake made is too many fish, and not enough plants. You need a LOT of plants, and a lot of light for them to grow, which will encourage them to consume the Nitrates being produced by even a few fish. A good biological filter to encourage nitrification from Ammonia to Nitrate is important, and then a good substrate to supplement the plants. Pennywort, Hornwort and Wisteria, all work well to consume the Nitrates. Some species of hairgrass can grow an inch or more in a day. Add in a few 'turners' like Corys and Loaches, even some species of shrimp...
You can always ADD nitrates by adding a little extra food or organic material to break down if your plants seem to be slowing in growth..it's harder to make the plants grow faster to consume more Nitrate
Of course, the next issue is then Fish like to eat the plants...
One thing to consider is a 'refugium' setup, where you have a tank under the main 'display' tank, but lit on the opposite schedule, and that tank has plants in it that are regularly harvested, but are 'isolated' away from your fish so that they don't all just get eaten and turned back into poop Stuff it full of Hairgrass and Moneywort/Hornwort, and then use Hornwort/Java Fern in the main tank, and you have a good start.
I found some pictures of when I last did this - I don't have any with it full of plants, but it filtered my reef tank for a couple years very effectively.
OMG I want a tank again...NOOOOOooooooooo !!!
The Nitrogen cycle is fairly straight forward. Fish Eat, waste is produced, and breaks down into Ammonia. The ammonia in turn is eaten by nitrifying bacteria, which excrete Nitrites (NO2), and then by other bacteria in to Nitrates (NO3). Plants and Algae like NO3, and consume it in to grow. Most people experience this as Algae...your tank goes green, because you're not getting rid of the Nitrates...which is why you are encouraged to clean the tank, vacuum up the poop, and change the water regularly (thereby diluting the nitrates again).
Generally, the biggest mistake made is too many fish, and not enough plants. You need a LOT of plants, and a lot of light for them to grow, which will encourage them to consume the Nitrates being produced by even a few fish. A good biological filter to encourage nitrification from Ammonia to Nitrate is important, and then a good substrate to supplement the plants. Pennywort, Hornwort and Wisteria, all work well to consume the Nitrates. Some species of hairgrass can grow an inch or more in a day. Add in a few 'turners' like Corys and Loaches, even some species of shrimp...
You can always ADD nitrates by adding a little extra food or organic material to break down if your plants seem to be slowing in growth..it's harder to make the plants grow faster to consume more Nitrate
Of course, the next issue is then Fish like to eat the plants...
One thing to consider is a 'refugium' setup, where you have a tank under the main 'display' tank, but lit on the opposite schedule, and that tank has plants in it that are regularly harvested, but are 'isolated' away from your fish so that they don't all just get eaten and turned back into poop
Stuff it full of Hairgrass and Moneywort/Hornwort, and then use Hornwort/Java Fern in the main tank, and you have a good start. I found some pictures of when I last did this - I don't have any with it full of plants, but it filtered my reef tank for a couple years very effectively.
OMG I want a tank again...NOOOOOooooooooo !!!
Does this mean a non filtered system?
What size tank is in use?
What chemicals are being used?
What is the main issue, just pH reading as such or is it algae growth? What pH is being targeted or what type of fish are intended?
arvil
Well-known member
I just reread your post again, looks like you’re speaking of a small pond rather than an aquarium. My neighbor as well as a couple others I know have koi ponds. Typically they clean about once a year. They clean the pond about once a year, cleaning out sludge and stuff and a partial water change. they also keep plants which helps the nitrogen cycle.
JodieM
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- Jul 18, 2013
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Hey guys! I am currently a fish keeper. I have a 20 gal freshwater community aquarium. I love all things water and plants! My aquarium felt like a natural extension of my pool and poolside plant love.
I have live plants, fish, shrimp and snails. If I can answer any questions fell free to give me a shout!
I have live plants, fish, shrimp and snails. If I can answer any questions fell free to give me a shout!
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- Nov 12, 2017
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Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Please.
We'll either be really impressed, or pretend to be!
JodieM
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- Jul 18, 2013
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Go ahead, oooh and awe please. At least to make me feel good! 
Last edited by a moderator:
OMG I totally forgot I posted this here. My wife has had her ecosystem stable since shortly after I made this original post, and we now seem to be breeding shrimp! Ill post some pics later tonight!
Ooohh. AaaahhhGo ahead, oooh and awe please. At least to make me feel good!
I don’t know if you can make out the shrimp in the close up. Theres like 8 of them in the tank (8 before the babies showed up!) and they’re often real hard to find.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,953
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
That's beautiful. As I said, I tried for decades to keep a successful marine tank. It never looked good for more than a few months at a time. So I really appreciate what goes into a great looking aquarium. Congrats!Go ahead, oooh and awe please. At least to make me feel good!
JodieM
Silver Supporter
- Jul 18, 2013
- 527
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Thank you! It’s a lot of work getting all things to balance, but once it’s dialed in it gets easier. I’m still working on balancing my lighting to allow plant growth and keep algae at bay. I do weekly spot cleaning and monthly water changes. I have more plants ordered for both tanks.
Orion7319
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- Jul 1, 2020
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I kept fish for a few decades. Had everything from reef tanks to brackish tanks. Last one I had was a Discus tank. Had to drain half the thank and refill once a week. Was on a well then, and the water out of the tap was perfect for them. Kinda miss it, gave it all up when my second child was born. Couldn’t devote the time to it at that point. It’s a ton of work.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,953
- Pool Size
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- Chlorine
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- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I gave mine up when I moved to new house with pool. But I did try to move it. Total disaster. But for years before that the tank kinda languished. It had gotten down to just the dead corral and rocks and one blue damsel. He was one tough mother.
One time, I accidentally overdosed the tank with chlorine (trying to get algae off the rocks in a separate bucket, but didn't rinse well enough before restoring to tank). The next day poor Bluey was laying on the sand, stone cold dead. I was sad, but kinda relieved, as he was the only reason I was keeping the tank going. Next day... he was swimming around like nothing happened!Dang, uh I mean, Yay, he lived! So I kept the tank for years after that, and then tried to move it. So much trouble. But poor Bluey didn't make it through that nightmare, and so I just gave it all away to some little girl and her mother, raising tilapia. I like to pretend they're still making use of all that gear (oh... the thousands of dollars... you all know what I'm talking about).
RIP, Bluey.
I never got the chemistry down. I never even learned how. Had I stumbled on the right forum, or even thought to look for one, I might have had better luck. I never really used forums before I found TFP. I shudder to think what my pool would look like right now had I used the same MO I had used on that fish tank!!
One time, I accidentally overdosed the tank with chlorine (trying to get algae off the rocks in a separate bucket, but didn't rinse well enough before restoring to tank). The next day poor Bluey was laying on the sand, stone cold dead. I was sad, but kinda relieved, as he was the only reason I was keeping the tank going. Next day... he was swimming around like nothing happened!
RIP, Bluey.
I never got the chemistry down. I never even learned how. Had I stumbled on the right forum, or even thought to look for one, I might have had better luck. I never really used forums before I found TFP. I shudder to think what my pool would look like right now had I used the same MO I had used on that fish tank!!
It would have worked great until the SWG died on year 6.5 and you couldn't fix it with the press of a button. Then panic set in when *3* clicks of the button didn't work either. (The HORROR !!!) Ask me how I know.
