New Quartz Plaster Startup Procedure - Revisited

[Chuck_Davis]

There are some good threads on this topic, and some excellent postings by onBalance, but I think there is enough new information here to warrant a new thread. I would appreciate opinions or recommendations between the four new plaster startup procedures that I have encountered.

Sometime in the fall we will be converting our epoxy surface to a WetEdge Luna Quartz plaster finish. The Local Pool Plastering Company ("LPPC", which actually operates in multiple states) handed me their standard startup procedure, which is based on the National Plasterers Council procedure. After establishing that I knew a fair amount about pool water chemistry (thanks to Trouble Free Pool), the LPPC salesman asked *me* for my opinion of the Orenda plaster startup procedure and SC-1000 sequestrant. This lead to a fairly extensive exploration of the rabbit hole.

The TFP postings by onBalance, and some of the articles he has written, make a very strong case for a positive CSI/LSI during the startup period. The LPPC recommends an LSI of 0.00 to +0.30 after the startup period. Orenda recommends an LSI between -0.30 and +0.30 after startup, with 0.0 being ideal.

The LPPC has been using Jack's Magic Magenta Stuff as a sequestrant during startup, so I spoke with both Jack's and Orenda. The difference of opinion was almost theological, with Jack's insisting that the LSI has to be negative during startup and Orenda insisting that the LSI has to be positive. I also looked at the startup procedure from WetEdge.

The procedures from the LPPC, Jack's and WetEdge give recommended ranges for various chemistry values, but don't actually mention LSI. When I "ran the numbers", it turned out that the calculated CSI's were negative or very slightly positive.

This is what I found:

LPPC (Based on National Plasterers Council procedure)

TA – 80 ppm
pH – 7.2 to 7.6
Sequestering Agent – Not specified
CH – Minimum 150 ppm, Day 2
FC – 1.5 ppm to 3 ppm, Days 3-28
CYA – Not specified
CH – Maximum 200 ppm, Days 4-28

Calculated CSI during startup - -0.61 to -0.12 (note that both figures are negative)
Recommended LSI after 28 days – 0.0 to +0.3


Jack’s Magic (Based on National Plasterers Council procedure)

TA – 80 ppm
pH – 7.2 to 7.6
Sequestering Agent – Magenta Stuff (or Blue Stuff, or a mix)
CH – Not specified (Days 1 to 3)
FC – 1.5 ppm to 3 ppm (Days 3 to 28)
CYA – 30 ppm to 50 ppm (Days 4 to 28)
CH – Maximum 200 ppm (Days 4-28)

Calculated CSI during startup - -0.61 to -0.12 (note that both figures are negative)
Recommended CSI/LSI after 28 days – N/A


WetEdge

TA – 80 ppm to 100 ppm
pH – 7.2 to 7.6
Sequestering Agent – Not specified
CH – 200 ppm (Days 1 to 7)
FC – 1 ppm to 3 ppm (Days 7 to 28)
CYA – 30 ppm to 50 ppm (Days 7 to 28)
CH – 250 ppm to 275 ppm (Days 8 to 28)

Calculated CSI during Days 1 to 7 - -0.44 to +0.05
Calculated CSI during Days 8 to 28 - -0.42 to +0.10
Recommended CSI/LSI after 28 days – N/A


Orenda

LSI Goal - +0.20 to +0.50 (Days 1-4)
LSI Goal – 0.0 to +0.3 (Days 5 to 28)
TA and CH to be calculated using Orenda app and LSI goals
pH – 7.5 to 7.8
Sequestering Agent – SC-1000
FC – Maximum 3 ppm to 5 ppm (Days 3 to 28)
CYA – None for first 30 days

Recommended LSI after 28 days – -0.30 to +0.30, 0.0 ideal

Again, I would be interested in which hymnal folks would recommend that I sing from. I am leaning towards the Orenda approach with a positive LSI (CSI) throughout the startup period.

For convenience, here are some points that were raised in other threads and which I asked Jack's and Orenda about.

Orenda acknowledged that SC-1000 does create a chlorine demand and will make the CH test inaccurate for the first 3-4 days. It was recommended to test the fill water and then calculate the additional CH needed. After the first week the recommended maintenance dose of SC-1000 only messes up the CH test for 3-4 hours.

Jack's said that Magenta Stuff would also consume chlorine but would not make the CH test inaccurate.

I wasn't able to determine the exact ingredients for either product, but it would be my opinion that neither SC-1000 nor Magenta Stuff will do a very good job of sequestering metals. (I get both metal and tannin stains in my pool from leaves during the fall, and have to use Jack's Magic Blue Stuff to control the metal staining.) Jacks' actually recommended that I use a mix of Magenta and Blue Stuff for the startup. I'm thinking of using a mix of SC-1000 and Blue Stuff or the Orenda procedure with Jack's Magenta and Blue Stuff instead of SC-1000. Do folks have an opinion about this?

Thanks!

 

[Rocket J Squirrel]

I recently re-plastered with Luna Quartz. I followed the Wet Edge guide and it turned out fine. Why would you not follow the manufacturer’s recommendation and risk voiding your warranty?

It’s true you’re on your own to determine a sequestrant. But it sounds like you know what’s in your water. With my known good water, I just got a bottle of “Metal B Gone” or whatever Leslie’s calls it.

 

[onBalance]

It is always and absolutely best to fill new plaster pools with positive CSI or LSI water.
So either the Orenda or onBalance start-up program which achieves that is best.
Why? Because the formation of plaster dust, which other start-up programs permit, means that the plaster surface has been compromised somewhat.

See this thread: https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/171335-Pool-Plaster-Start-up-Alternative

 

[Chuck_Davis]

Thanks, onBalance!

For the convenience of those following me through the rabbit hole, here is the "onBalance (Bicarb) Start-up Program"

https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/59984-A-Bicarb-Start-up-guide-for-TFP-members

There are a couple of items I don't see explicitly addressed in the Bicarb Start-up Program.

If the CH of the fill water is below 150, should CH be increased to 150? If CH does need to be increased, should that be done in the startup tank or immediately after the pool is filled?

Should TA be maintained at (500 - CH) through the 3-4 week startup period or just left to its own devices after the fill?

Pulling all these threads together, along with some other information I picked up along the way, this is the "cookbook" I'm thinking of using. I left the acid wash in since I'm unlikely to retrain the plastering crew on their troweling technique and I don't want to take the company too far outside of their comfort/warranty zone. I figure the Orenda SC-1000 "can't hurt, might help." A commenter on the Bicarb Start-up Program thread recommended borates, and I've had good luck with borates and pH. I'd appreciate any comments, corrections or suggestions.

** Pre-test the fill water for pH, TA and CH
** Calculate the amount of sodium bicarbonate (and possibly muriatic acid) to add to the startup tank for the “Bicarb Startup”
** Calculate the amount of boric acid to add to the startup tank for 40-50 ppm
** Go ahead and do the light acid wash, and then thoroughly neutralize the acid and remove the effluent
** Set up the startup tank with sodium bicarbonate, boric acid and possibly muriatic acid
** Wait 6-8 hours before starting to fill the pool
** Read water meter
** Put Orenda SC-1000 in the pool just before starting to fill
** Fill the pool via the startup tank
** Read water meter when the pool is full to get an accurate figure for the pool capacity
** Confirm that pool heater has been bypassed before starting pump
** Adjust pH to 7.6 if necessary
** Adjust CH to minimum 150 if necessary
** Add maintenance dose amount of Jack’s Magic Blue Stuff (to sequester metals from leaves, since our pool is being plastered in the fall)
** For the first month:
>> Run filter for 20-24 hours per day for the first week, then 6-8 hours per day
>> Brush pool twice daily for the first week, then once daily
>> Backwash filter as necessary
>> Maintain water chemistry to TFP standards except for CH (which should be 150 or fill water level, whichever is higher), and TA (which should be kept at [500 – CH]).
>> Use Trichlor for sanitation starting around Day 3 (1-3 ppm)
>> Add weekly maintenance dose of SC-1000
>> Add weekly maintenance dose of Jack’s Magic Blue Stuff
** After the first month:
>> Start using liquid chlorine for sanitation (via Liquidator)
>> Reduce TA to 70-90
>> If necessary, adjust CH to 250-350
>> Adjust CYA to 40-50
>> Maintain pH at 7.2-7.8
>> Find a stable chemistry balance that maintains a CSI of 0.00 to +0.30 (the Orenda app appears to be a very convenient tool)

Thanks again.

 

[bdavis466]

The industry is still set on using LSI but that's more suited to the boiler industry and doesn't fully capture everything encountered in the bulk pool water. CSI is much more encompassing and easily calculated here on the forum.

The Orenda method is fine so long as you live in an area where it actually rains and I feel the chances of scale are significantly higher even if using their recommended sequestrant.

OnBalance's Bicarb Startup is more for forgiving, less expensive, adaptable and reversible if need be. I bet I've done 50+ pools with it and haven't had a single issue.

I have never adjusted the CH of the fill water and only compensated for it by adding bicarb and keep the pH high enough to main the CSI in the +0.5 area. I don't add calcium because we typically have to drain our pools every couple years due to calcium levels through the roof.

There's a little more discussion on the Orenda method +/- HERE