Cloudy water, no algae, test results fairly okay. HELP!

[Thunderheart]

Hi,

In advance, thanks to all for the wonderful advice found here and in the Pool Forum!! I have learned enough to make my head "swim"


I am new to the swimming pool world and about to throw my hands up! We bought a 2 year vacant home that came with this lovely frog sanctuary, which I fondly called my cement pond until the croaking got the better of me! Seriously, I must have relocated over a thousand frogs to new homes around the area! This was late June and we cleaned about 3 feet of muck out of the bottom. By mid July we had fairly clear water pool by shocking the water with granular chlorine and dichlor as well as using a store brand algaecide (not polyquat 60); however the pool was not one in which I would swim. We went out of town for 2 weeks only to return last week to what we thought was a white algae bloom. I decided it was time Mom took charge and get educated. Thankfully I found your site.

Just alittle info about our pool: It is a 2003, 40' x 18' heart shaped gunite ingound pool with some type of plaster finish with 3.5' to 8-10' depth depending on the nice coastal Georgia thunderstorms. So we approximate 30,000 gallons filtered by a Hayward 300# Sand Filter and a new Hayward 1.5 HP pump (flow rate unknown) which has been running 24/7 for the past week. We have a bottom drain and 2 skimmers with 3 rotating eye return lines. Lastly, we have a dedicated cleaner return line (Polaris 480 pro) with a new Hayward 6060 3/4 HP pump. The latter just arrived yesterday so is not connected.

Do to timing, we got the Taylor K-2005C kit locally. Test results are as follows:
FC-5 ppm PH- 7.2 CYA-60
TC-5 ppm TA- 120 ppm
CC-0 CA Hardness- 300 ppm

No borates tested. Non have been added yet.
The Saturation index is 0.2 at a estimated temp of 78 degrees.

We have kept the FC (by strip measurement) at 10 ppm for atleast 6 days using bleach. The stabilizer measured 0 two days ago so we added 3 # of dichlor. The water has been very consistently cloudy until today. This is not algae bloom as the sides are smooth. There is a fine dust on the bottom of the pool which can easily be stirred up but not captured in the leaf net. In fact, I cannot really feel it, but the water feels oily to me. Do I need to add a clarifier, and if so, which one would you recommend?

Also, my goal was to keep the TA around the recommended 70-80, ph at 7.5 and the FC at about 6. I think since our ambient temp is around 90 I will not increase the CYA to 80 at this time. At this point, what would you recommend. I have the BBBs and muriatic acid waiting in the garage. I am just a little nervous about putting in muriatic acid to lower ph, aerate to elevate TA, then adding borax to increase the ph. So, any advice would be greatly appreciated at this point.

Hope I have been descriptive enough without being bothersome.

Thanks a mill!
Shan

 

[TizMe]

First , Welcome to the forum !

If your CYA is 60 then your FC is to low for shocking your water. I would start using liquid bleach found at your local Walmart and raise your FC level to 24. You need to keep it there until your pool water is clear which could take several days.

If you have gunk and stuff on the bottom pf your pool try scooping it out with a leaf net. Getting as much out as you can will help in getting the pool cleared faster becaue it wouny allow algae to hide in amongst the stuff on the bottom and be killed with the higher FC level.

I suspect the fine powder your seeing on the bottom is dead algae. Keep your filter running 24/7 and brush the pool as often as possible.

 

[Thunderheart]

Thanks for the info Les!

No debris on the bottom except for the "fine dust". Okay so this may explain the situation. Once we got back here we noted the "sand" on the bottom of the pool which was somewhat clear at that time. Then we brushed and stirred the "dust" up over the the next day or so and it remained in suspension until yesterday. Now it has fallen to the bottom again. The water is still slightly cloudy but now I can see the bottom.

Any way to know for certain that this is in fact dead algae? Also, are my calculations of 1182 oz bleach correct? And, should I increase the ph with baking soda without concern for lowering the TA?

Lastly, with the DAS CL test, it only goes to 5 ppm. Any way to dilute to obtain a true FC and TC value? I doubt I can return this $110 test kit. Otherwise, I will never know if FC is indeed 24 ppm.

THANKS!

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Your PH and TA are ok. Don't add anything right now.

The PH is low, but it will likely rise on it's own if you simply aerate the water. You can aerate by pointing the eyeballs up to break the surface, or using a fountain or home-made aerator (use the google search feature -bottom left for "aerator"). The PH will likely creep up on it's own over time if you use bleach as your chlorine source.

The only reason you should worry about lowering the TA is if you were to have an SWG. Same for the CYA - you don't want it to be 80. 30-50 is the recommended range for a non-swg pool.

I would hold off on adding borates to your pool until you "get to know your pool" a little better. This is not the time to tackle borates....focus on clearing the pool.

One thing that is key to a trouble-free pool is an FAS-DPD test. You can supplement your kit with the individual test - both Taylor and TFtestkits.net sell the test on it's own for about $25.

With an FAS-DPD test, you can detect an overnight loss and confirm organics consuming the chlorine. This is the way to confirm if the algae is dead. It tests chlorine levels up to 50ppm, your DPD test only tests up to 5. You can use distilled water and use the dilution method: 3:1 ratio of distilled water to pool water and then multiply the results by 4, this will read the chlorine up to 20, which still won't help you when at shock level, and it also loses accuracy.

 

[Thunderheart]

Hi again and thanks for the info. We backwashed the filter again (4th time in 10 days) and brought the water to FC of 24 (theoretically) with 6% bleach last night. At night we can see that there is in fact bleached out broken down leaf debris at the bottom drain. Not much but difficult to capture in the leaf net and easily dispersed so hopefully some was picked up by the skimmers overnight. We hope to have the booster pump in tonight and the polaris installed working overnight to vacuum the floor.

At 5 pm today the water is still very cloudy, (aquachem strip FC-10, TC-10 PH ~7.2 Stabilizer 50 TA~120). I know bleach and POP.

But, my concern is that for the first 6 days we kept the FC around 10 ppm (Aquachem strip) using about 23# of chlorinating granules, shock and/or bottles of bleach during that period and the water still remained cloudy. With Trichlor and dichlor products I thought that we would have enough stabilizer to give adequate CYA results and keep the FC from being depleted. But on Monday this week the CYA using the strip test was 0 and FC was down to 3. The water remained cloudy but the sides smooth, not slimy. That is when I found TFP and pool forum.

We are in direct sunlight with no trees on the property and we have had massive thunderstorms with at times 5 " of rain water in 2 hour time period dumped into the pool.

Dead algae is certainly a probability But, my concern is that we may also have a filtration issue. Hubby states that psi is around 10-12 and when he needs to backwash the pressue gets to around 18-20 psi. I called the local pool person about the Taylor kit we bought from him (BTW "none of his distributors sell the FAS-DPD test as it's unnecessary when there is simple formula to calculate the CL so that is why he sold hubby the K-2005 kit....boy, I owe hubby a big apology!!). He thought that the sand needed to be changed in the filter and/or that I needed a clarifier. He was shocked I would have the FC up to 24. Interesting, huh!

So, I do not know if keeping FC to 24 and using POP for several days will work. Or if I need a clarifier to capture the fine debris. Or if I should change the sand. I doubt it had ever been changed in the past. And we guess the pool was put here 4-6 years ago.

Also, we will be leaving the area on Sept 6th only to return on October 4th. As for chemicals, what would you suggest for this period? Pucks and CYA sock? We are placing the pump on a timer, but I doubt we will keep the booster pump going with the polaris.

Lastly, I know that it is recommended to keep the CYA at 30-50 but as for increasing the CYA to 80, I got the information from the following thread:
http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread.php?t=9038
Since this is south coastal GA, I think I may give this a shot next season unless Chemgeek suggests differently now.

I will use the kit to test later this evening and will work on aerating. Seems the eyes are "frozen" on the returns.

Thanks for all the help. Just worried we will not be able to clear this water just with bleach. Obviously the CYA was never high enough to protect the chlorine. FRUSTRATED as I sure was hoping to get in this pool by now.

 

[TizMe]

If you have had that much rain (up to 5" in a 2 hour period) a couple of times its possible that your CYA has diminished because of that. Is it possible to take a water sample to a pool store and have them test it ?

As for "leaving the area" until 10/04 is there someone who can come and look after the pool for you ? The problem with using pucks is your CYA will become so high it wont allow the chlorine to be effective resulting in a green pool again.

 

[Hotrod30]

If there is nobody that knows pools you can count on, I would hire a pool service to take care of the pool. For a month, with heavy rains sometimes, and the hot sun, your pool won't be in to good of shape when you come back.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Do not trust CYA readings from a test strip. Only use the CYA test that comes with the Taylor test kit, the liquid test.

If you are going to be gone for a month, You should hire a service to look out for things.

Without an SWG even in Georgia I wouldn't go higher than 60 on your CYA.

Without an FAS-DPD test, you can't confirm with much degree of certainty that the organics that were consuming the chlorine are dead. So you have to shock until the water is clear. If the test confirmed it, then you could narrow the cloudiness down to a filtration issue.

You can open up the filter and check the sand for channelling. You can also try adding a little DE to the sand filter to help aid in clarity - instructions are in pool school.

 

[Thunderheart]

I am using the Taylor kit currently but have found the aquachem strip to closely approximate the Taylor results.

Water is still cloudy but bluer. Will have to order the FAS-DPD test as no one locally (15 miles from me) carries it. But, I will continue to shock with bleach and look into hiring someone for the next month.

Also, thanks for the advice about adding the DE. I had thought about that yesterday. As you stated earlier, get to know the pool and equipment. Our FC is over 20 ppm, and the polaris did not "catch" a thing last night. So we are looking into the fitration issues even though the psi was only 14 this afternoon.

Thanks again to all for your help.
Shannon

 

[boondog]

This sounds like what I just went through. I did as I was told and shocked at the correct level for 3 and 1/2 days til the water cleared and it's been easy ever since. Just keep the chlorine at the proper levels and for the most part your good, or rather your pool is good.

Thanks again everyone,
Roger

 

[geekgranny]

Water is still cloudy but bluer. ..... and the polaris did not "catch" a thing last night. So we are looking into the fitration issues even though the psi was only 14 this afternoon.
Thanks again to all for your help.
Shannon

Hi Shannon. Although I'm a new member here, long time "lurker", I do have 23 years experience with my pool with excssive fine silt in my pool due to environment and swim load from large and GIANT dogs stirring it up while playing and dragging it in to the pool in addition to winds constantly blowing it in. The silt is so fine it goes right through even the Polaris sand/silt bag. The sand/silt bag picks up my very fine sand though.

I have found that using a women's support hose inside the Polaris bag is just about the best way to pick it up with litle hassle. From a women's queen support panty hose you can get 4-6 bags for the Polaris and use the panty part as a skimmer sock. I've experimented with different thickness of knit. If it is too thin the debris goes though the Polaris stocking and if too thick the venturi suction is reduced more than I want and have to change the bag too often.

I have so much sand/silt daily that during my nightly clean-up of pool, running the Polaris from 7 till midnight using 7" hose bags (10 " cut length) I'll fill up at least two hose bags with mostly heavy silt. In addition I use a Pool Blaster (Buster) to quickly pickup the shallow end and steps and bench. I use heavy women's tights in the Blaster as a bag liner filling 1-2 in about 15 minutes of vacuuming.

Most of what gets stirred up by Polaris is caught in the DE filter during that filter cycle. In the morning the pool is virtually free of tiny stuff and sparkling clear. I do run Polaris with sand/silt bag for several filter sessions during the day.

Most people will never have this amount of tiny fine stuff in their pools even over long periods of time but it is a daily thing for me unless the dogs don't use the pool for a day or two (rare). I've had more than one "tadpole/frog ponds" over the years but had to acid wash after with refill but on occasion when I have closed the pool without a cover so that there is about a foot of gunk, (mostly organic) (I'm in heavy woods) in pool over winter, with almost black water, after initial gunk cleanout (leaf bag pulling it out by hand, one major vacuuming to filter with several backwashes (I don't have a "waste" feature; only to filter or backwash), lots of chlorine....... AND using 24 hours filtering for several days, with several backwashings AND running Polaris with stocking insert while I am here to change out the stockings as they fill up quickly at first, within a week the pool is sparkling clear.

Be sure to check the little screen where the Polaris attaches to wall, especially first few days, as some stuff can make it to the screen reducing water pressure to Polaris. I check mine daily when I detach Polaris from wall to set it away from edge of pool when dogs have their pool time.

Also I can't say enough about the benefits of a skimmer sock (or support hose panty or even regular hose with support panty). Skimmer socks catch an amazing amount of extremely fine debris. I usually change mine out 2-3 times a day. It is much easier to empty and rinse them when they are dry.

Hope this helps some. geekgranny

 

[Thunderheart]

Thanks for this great info Geekgranny! I will go out tomorrow and get the panty hose. Hubby has had great patience until today . I gave up a couple days ago. :grrrr: This evening we added the DE as suggested as we just cannot get the water cleared. We must have a filter issue as it has been running 24/7 for the past 15 days. The polaris has been on since Friday. It has picked up some grit but very little. Yet, when I brush tonight there is this fine powder. So, I know something is there. The FAS-DPD has not arrived so unsure of algae but the pool FC is brought to around 30 ppm each night and is around 12 ppm the next evening. Because our CYA is so high thanks to the 3 pounds of dichlor added a week ago, we have to shock with 1000 or more ounces of 6% bleach every night. No creatures survive in it. Now, tonight our TA has managed to get to 250 and the ph is 7.8 (not sure to trust this since so much bleach has been added night after night) so now I am wondering if the fine dust is calcium scaling. The ceramic tile has a white mark where the water has evaporated over the last 2 days. And, it will not come clean by simply brushing off.

Anyway, thanks for suggesting the pantyhose for collecting the fine particulate matter. I will give that a try. By the way, how do I attach the hose inside the zipper bag of the polaris?

Shannon

 

[PaulR]

The FAS-DPD has not arrived so unsure of algae but the pool FC is brought to around 30 ppm each night and is around 12 ppm the next evening.

The real question is, what is the FC first thing in the morning, before the sun starts to burn up the FC?

Now, tonight our TA has managed to get to 250 and the ph is 7.8 (not sure to trust this since so much bleach has been added night after night) so now I am wondering if the fine dust is calcium scaling. The ceramic tile has a white mark where the water has evaporated over the last 2 days. And, it will not come clean by simply brushing off.

That does sound Not Good. Combining with your previous numbers that would be pH 7.8, TA 250, CH 300, CYA 60, temp 80, and you are really in scaling territory.

On the other hand, this means your TA reading has somehow doubled since you started this thread, which is a really strange thing. It makes me suspect a testing problem. Do you have a recent full set of tests from your Taylor kit? The pH test will be suspect because of the high FC, but otherwise things ought to be okay (the colors on the TA test will be affected but if you look for a color change, rather than specific colors, the test will still work.)
--paulr

 

[geekgranny]

Anyway, thanks for suggesting the pantyhose for collecting the fine particulate matter. I will give that a try. By the way, how do I attach the hose inside the zipper bag of the polaris?

Shannon

First tie one knot at bottom of panty where leg begins, pulling knot it very tight. Cut below knot. Now you have a great skimmer sock.

For Polaris liner tie another knot about 1/2 way down leg, pulling tight, and cut below knot. This gives you two silt bags per leg. At first I would do this even if it seems too long to fit inside Polaris bag.

Take Polaris bag off. Place hose down inside where the venturi jets come out. Pull about an inch or more up, over the edge of plastic and fold down all around outside of plastic.

Now put your Polaris bag back on with hose hanging down inside. Work the bag clips until they engage. They will be going through the hose hanging inside. That's why you don't want the hose to be too thick, like tights would be, because you need for the clips to engage.

When you put the Polaris bag in water and turn it on the water jets will push the hose up into the Polaris bag.

To take bag out take Polaris bag off, unzip bag (or open velcro, depending on Polaris bag model) and remove silt liner from top opening of Polaris bag. Mine are usually so full that they won't go out the bottom end of Polaris bag.

Notes:
*If the hosiery is too thick it is difficult to get the clip buttons to engage.
*If hose is too thin it won't catch the very fine stuff.
*If hose is too long inside bag and "stuff" is very heavy it will affect the movement and action of Polaris when it gets full.
*I prefer about 6"-7", unstretched, of hose inside of Polaris bag. My silt is very heavy.
*First time doing you might want to make two bags per leg until you know how long you need the hose bag to be. Then you can make three bags per leg if you want and they will be long enough.
*I've tried women's tights for Polaris but I can't get the bag buttons to engage because the tights are just too thick. Works great with the Pool Buster (Blaster) though.
*The buttons might not come all the way through like they do without the hose but as long as the bag stays on when you jiggle and pull on it bag should stay on.
* I keep a bunch of them and do a major skimmer sock/cleaner silt sock cleaning at one sitting. Gunk is easier to remove from sock/bags when dry and then blast them with water hose while they are turned inside out.
*Sometimes I don't get all of the silt out of bags with water blasting from hose. A good swirl and squeezes several times in a container with plain water helps and then another blast with water spray.
*The more chlorine in pool during use the faster the hose bags/socks will deteriorate. Everyone's mileage will vary.
*I have used nurses white support hose in past but prefer a darker color as you can see it better inside Polaris Bag.
*I've used the hose liners with all three of the Polaris bags, i.e., regular, leaf, and sand/silt bag. All work well.

Good luck and please report your results. BTW... my hubby picked up a pair of pantyhose at WallyWorld, last week, with substantial looking knit, not support though. The legs didn't catch anything but the panty part works great as a skimmer sock. Be ready to try several different panty hose until you get the right one. You WILL find the right one. :-D

 

[Thunderheart]

Excellent descriptions Geekgranny. Your are the best! I look forward to trying all these out and will post my results.

FINALLY.....clearer water!

For those who are interested in my results...okay terrible miscalculation on the TA last night. Brain blip! It was actually 125 ppm at 10 pm.

Our schedules preclude us from checking FC before daybreak. I was not going to do this until the FAS-DPD test arrived as the dilution process I think makes the results not as precise. Still, I may give this a shot tomorrow am.

9/1 results at 10 pm:
CYA 70
FC 12 (difficult to know for sure since K-2005 test kit and I am diluting 1:3 with distilled water)
TC 15 (again noted a color change but not sure exact numbers)
CC 3 ditto
TA 125
CH 250
PH 7.8
Temp 78
PSI 12

Cloudy conditions with some rain throughout the day and night. We added DE at 2 3/4 cup; 5 oz of diluted clarifier and 1044oz 6% bleach. Thoroughly brushed pool. PSI 17 at around 5 am.

9/2 results at 3 pm:
CYA 70
FC at 20% solution--25 ppm; at 8.9% solution 33.35 ppm
TC 45 at 8.9% dilution
CC ~11
TA 125
CH 125
TEMP 74
CSI 0.18
PH 8.0
PSI 18
Color pale blue
Clarity: clear; not sparkling
Debris--worms and grit
Water level increase about 1 inch.
Numerous visible brown stains on bottom of pool ( iron staining? )

The CH and TA were verified 3 times this afternoon. Yesterday and previously, when the last reagent was added on the CH test to turn the color blue there were notable amounts of particulate matter (presumed calcium) in the vial. Today, the vial was clear, infact the red was pale pink and clear, and the blue was so pale I could hardly make out when the color changed.

Questions:
1. Did the calcuim get filtered out? The CH has been consistently between 300 and 250 for the past 2 weeks.
2. Do I need to add calcium back in?
3. Is the ph of 8.0 valid with the amounts of bleach added nightly? If not, how do I interpret this result and what next?
4. When I do a back wash (probably tonight) will this wash out the DE I added last night?

Okay, thanks again. Atleast I now see clearer!

 

[stev32k]

Your filter outlet pressure seems low to me. It sounds like I might have the same hayward sand filter and 1-1/2 HP pump as you and the outlet pressure from my filter is always 24 psi just after backwashing. I would open up the filter and check the sand level it should be about 3/4 full. You might also have plugged off distributors in the bottom of the filter. If so they could be restricting the flow of water which would give low pressure at the top. If the flow is too low the water will channel and you won't get much filtration.

 

[Thunderheart]

Thanks for the tip Stev32k. It turns out that once we added the DE, the water cleared. The pressures did go up to 24 psi, but the polaris barely moved suggesting that atleast for us, 24 psi with the current sand level is simply too high. Ours operates best at around 14 psi. Unfortunately, the plumbing will have to be cut in order to remove the top of the sand filter. So until that time, we are limited on diagnostics. We have had to backwash and replace the DE 3 times now. The water is sparkling. We used clarifier twice which seemed to help alot. I suspect that poor sand quality and/or not enough sand has been a major problem.

Geekgranny, the panty hose work well, but we really had very little debris for them to catch. Thanks for this suggestion. We have black dirt (like sand) and some white sand here that just gets blown into the pool. This idea will help tremendously especially once we have visitors using the pool!

For those who have followed all this, I just want to give you an synopsis and update. As stated, the pool water is now parkling pale blue and finally the FC is low enough (Labor Day eve) for us to venture into it. It was wonderful but alas we have to leave tomorrow. Next visit will be too cool to get in it. We started in June will literally 1000's of tiny frogs in this 2.5 year abandoned pool. We borrowed a waste pump to remove about 3 feet of thick algae and stinky gunk from the bottom of the pool. Our water table is so high we were cautious about lowering the pool but did get the level down to where we could then pressure wash this rubbery like orange algae off the sides and bottom (low end). ANY ONE KNOW WHAT KIND OF ALGAE THIS WAS? It was tenacious and formed a lattice that could not be brushed off. While the water level was low we bleached the heck out of the water then brought the water level up and left bleach in it. A few weeks later upon returning my husband used baking soda, bleach and dichlor over the week he was here. This was late July. When we returned once again to this location 3 weeks ago, we noticed the "white algae bloom". We put in the new pumps, bleach and dichlor, and have since filtered 24/7. Then, once finding the pool forum, began this tread.

In retrospect, I would have lowered the pool water to decrease my CYA to atleast 30 ppm, then started the sanitizer process. We would have saved a whole lot of money on bleach as we had to keep the FC at 31 due to the high CYA. I think for the most part we had dead algae and the filter system was not working to sufficient levels. Adding the DE and clarifier seemed to help the most. I tested the evening and am FC without loss on numerous nights last week. CC are negative. When brushing, there is still some "white dust". Got to get our Calcium up soon!

Lessons learned, still more lessons to come I fear! BEST of Luck to all. BTW, some of you guys have some fantastic pools and lawns. CONGRATS as I know how much goes into keeping it beautiful! I love the "deep end" threads. If you have the time, pool chemistry is way challenging and fun!

Thanks again to everyone for there valuable information!
Shan