Circupool SJ-45 vs. CMP PowerClean Ultra 760

[cameradude]

Hi all!
I have had a Hayward SwimPure Plus with a T-15 cell for the past 8 years. I have a 28,000-gallon plaster (pebble tec) pool and I live in Phoenix, AZ where the water is hard and the sun shines a lot! I can't seem to get more than a couple of years out of a cell because they get a lot of scale on them and need to be acid washed a few times each year. My most recent cell was a refurbished one from Salt Solutions and it only lasted 1 1/2 years.

When I clean them I first flush with the hose to knock off the loose scale, then dilute the acid about 10:1 water : acid. My point is, I don't think I am abusing the cells, they just have a hard time with my pool!

I am thinking about getting a system that doesn't need acid to clean the plates, it just seems like a good long-term decision. That narrows my search down to the Circupool SJ-45 and the CMP PowerClean Ultra 760.

Both seem like good units, both put out around the same amount of chlorine, and both also have the limitations of a lack of fine tuning of the output and no LED display for more information.

Is my thinking about changing right on this? Any other models I should consider? Does anybody have experience with either of these that might tip the scale? Any feedback would be appreciated!

 

[proavia]

Refurbished cells usually aren't as good as factory new cells - hence the reduced price.

The recommendation is for a SWG rated at least 2x your pool volume. At 28k gallons that's a SWG rated at a minimum of 56k. The cell rating is based on running the cell (and pump) 24/7.

Any chance the Hayward controller is still servicable and a new genuine Hayward cell would work?

I am unfamiliar with the CMP offering.

Also, be aware that the Circupool SJ series takes a higher salt level than your old Hayward - or the Circupool RJ series.
You would be best served with an RJ60+ .... especially being in this furnace we both live in.

I have an RJ45+ with a 12k pool. Well oversized to provide me with a good amount of flexibility and longevity.

How are you testing your pool water? What test kit?
Have you been managing your CSI?

Also, look into a water softener plumbed into your autofill to better control your CH.
Continuously rising CH levels do to high evaporation rates and not closely mangaing your pool water will scale up a SWG quickly. The more you acid wash the salt cell, the faster the cell coating erodes and the faster the cell fails.

 

[cameradude]

Refurbished cells usually aren't as good as factory new cells - hence the reduced price.

The recommendation is for a SWG rated at least 2x your pool volume. At 28k gallons that's a SWG rated at a minimum of 56k. The cell rating is based on running the cell (and pump) 24/7.

Any chance the Hayward controller is still servicable and a new genuine Hayward cell would work?

I am unfamiliar with the CMP offering.

Also, be aware that the Circupool SJ series takes a higher salt level than your old Hayward - or the Circupool RJ series.
You would be best served with an RJ60+ .... especially being in this furnace we both live in.

I have an RJ45+ with a 12k pool. Well oversized to provide me with a good amount of flexibility and longevity.

How are you testing your pool water? What test kit?
Have you been managing your CSI?

Also, look into a water softener plumbed into your autofill to better control your CH.
Continuously rising CH levels do to high evaporation rates and not closely mangaing your pool water will scale up a SWG quickly. The more you acid wash the salt cell, the faster the cell coating erodes and the faster the cell fails.

Thank you for your thoughts, it's good to get input from somebody in a similar situation!

Although the SJ-45 is recommended for 45K gallon pools, it puts out 1.9 lbs of chlorine, the other model I am looking at, the CMJ 760 (rated for 60K gal pool) puts out 1.88 lbs. My current T-15 puts out 1.4 lbs. and has had no problem keeping up FC levels in the summer when running at 75% for the 10 hrs a day my pump is running. So I feel like the models I am thinking about will be able to produce enough chlorine.

My CH is stable at about 400 and has been for the past several years.

I use the TF-100 test kit and a Taylor K-1766 for salt, I use the pool math app to make sure my CSI is between -.4 and .4 (it is usually slightly in the negative range).

The Hayward controller is fine, and for the first 6 1/2 years I used genuine Hayward cells, I went through 3 in that time (not much better than refurbished). I'd like to stop buying cells so often. I am not sure that buying and plumbing a water softener just for my pool equipment is the best way to deal with this when a cell that can be opened and cleaned manually is available.

Is there a problem with these kinds of cells/systems that I am unaware of? People seem to not consider them very often.

 

[Oly]

Looking for a SWCG that does not require cleaning the plates is not the solution and the question is why are my cells plates fowling so frequently.
That said a quality unit will utilize reverse polarity which will reduce scaling and that is good. Issues with rapid scale production should be mitigated with subtle changes in water chemistry.
This video is very good, a bit long and some sound problem in the beginning but speaks directly to your issue.

 

[cameradude]

Looking for a SWCG that does not require cleaning the plates is not the solution and the question is why are my cells plates fowling so frequently.
That said a quality unit will utilize reverse polarity which will reduce scaling and that is good. Issues with rapid scale production should be mitigated with subtle changes in water chemistry.
This video is very good, a bit long and some sound problem in the beginning but speaks directly to your issue.

Thanks for the reply and the video. I had watched it a few months ago but I went back through it at 1.5X speed to make sure I didn't forget something important.

The fact that my CSI is well managed (in addition to the rest of the pool chemistry) suggests to me that the chemistry is not the problem.

I also don't have a huge sample size, but in AZ scale accumulation that affects the function of the cell 3 times a year is not uncommon.

Which brings me back to my original thought: I live in a place that seems to cause some scaling, wouldn't it be better to switch to a system that automatically reverses polarity and a cell that can be cleaned in a way that is not harmful to the cell?

 

[proavia]

Are you on a well or does your house have a whole house water softener?

City water, in any part of the valley, has a CH of 200-250 as it is from the Colorado and/or Salt rivers. Given our extreme temps and low humidity, there is a lot of evaporation. With evaporation, water leaves the pool but CH and otger dissolved solids don't. Adding water to refill the evaporation loses will continuously increase CH unless that water is soft before it enters the pool.

What is the CH and TA of your fill water?

Most cells already switch polarity and aremarketed as "self-cleaning". But with our hard water, that isn't enough. You should manage your CSI between 0.00 and -0.30 - the range above zero that you listed is adding to your cell scaling issue.

There are SWG users in AZ that don't get scale. This can be accomplished thru careful CSI monitoring. CH and ph play a big roll in keeping CSI between 0.00 and -0.30 . The only reason it isn't uncommon to clean a cell 3x per year in AZ is improper water balance. There are several users here that have never cleaned theircell and live in hard water areas.

 

[cameradude]

Understood

Are you on a well or does your house have a whole house water softener?

City water, in any part of the valley, has a CH of 200-250 as it is from the Colorado and/or Salt rivers. Given our extreme temps and low humidity, there is a lot of evaporation. With evaporation, water leaves the pool but CH and otger dissolved solids don't. Adding water to refill the evaporation loses will continuously increase CH unless that water is soft before it enters the pool.

What is the CH and TA of your fill water?

Most cells already switch polarity and aremarketed as "self-cleaning". But with our hard water, that isn't enough. You should manage your CSI between 0.00 and -0.30 - the range above zero that you listed is adding to your cell scaling issue.

There are SWG users in AZ that don't get scale. This can be accomplished thru careful CSI monitoring. CH and ph play a big roll in keeping CSI between 0.00 and -0.30 . The only reason it isn't uncommon to clean a cell 3x per year in AZ is improper water balance. There are several users here that have never cleaned theircell and live in hard water areas.

Understood and agreed.

In addition to the range I posted, I did also say that I am usually just a touch in the negative range.

What I have accepted about myself is that I don't want my life to revolve around making sure my CSI never goes above 0. I travel a lot for work, I am not about to start paying somebody to take care of my pool over an occasional dip into slightly positive CSI territory. The only problem my attitude creates is some scaling, a problem that I think there is a solution for, the one I stated in my original post.

I guess I view it like phosphates, ideally phosphates should probably be very very low, but TFP acknowledges that there is a relatively pain-free way to make sure moderate phosphates don't cause a problem. Similarly, I think I have found a relatively pain-free way to handle the scaling I get.

So, given that my pool chemistry is not cuckoo-bananas, given that I don't want to hyper-mange my water or pay somebody to do it when I am out of town...

Is there a problem with either of the systems I asked about that have cells I can clean without acid?

 

[proavia]

Your last PoolMath log is from 2+ years ago. It shows a CYA of 50.
It is recommended to have a CYA of 70 with an SWG. This will help slow the UV burnoff of chlorine and the cell won't have to run as long to keep the FC in the target range - FC/CYA Levels .

Based on how you have chosen to manage your water, there is no cell that won't need to be manually cleaned from time to time - whether that be an acid wash, using a popsicle stick or blowing the calcium off with a high pressure hose nozzle. Every time you acid wash the cell, you erode more of the plating and shorten the cell life.

Once you get the TA down around the 50-60 range, pH will rise slower. It will be easy to keep the CSI in the 0.00 to -0.30 range without needing to "hyper-manage" your pool water. I usually check my pH weekly and the chlorine a few times a week (still dialing the SWG in as the air temp increases). I do the other tests monthly. So max 5 minutes a couple times a week and 15 minutes once a month for testing.

Personally, I wouldn't have a Circupool SJ series -
1 - higher required salt level
2 - I believe the percentage adjustments are in 10% steps or greater
3 - It's their entry level, basic SWG

I have no experience with the CMP offering and haven't seen any posts here about them (although I really haven't looked that hard).

If I was looking for a new SWG package for a pool without automation, I would look at the Circupool RJ series... the RJ60+ is well suited for your application. The RJ60+ can produce up to 3 pounds of chlorine gas in a 24 hour period. A larger cell should last longer (in theory) as long as you keep the CSI slightly negative.

There is no way your CH is staying at 400 unless you are using softened water or really soft well water in the PHX area. Unsoftened city tap water is usually 190-250 in most parts of the greater Phoenix area. You will evaporate at least 12,000 gallons (probably more) from your pool yearly. My 12,000 gallon pool evap rate is 1 to 1.5 times the pool volume yearly. This can be verified by the increase in CH.

Add your TF100 and K1766 test kits to your signature.
How old are the reagents?

Again, what is the TA and CH of your fill water?

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Is there a problem with either of the systems I asked about that have cells I can clean without acid?

CMP took over Saline Generation Systems after they went belly-up a few years ago. I suspect the CMP Power Clean is what SGS used to market as the Breeze series. You may find more info and reviews searching SGS Breeze series.

The cell design does make it easy to clean. Pull out the electrodes, high pressure rinse, and bit of nudging with a paint stick removed all scale. The primary problem I had with the cell design occurred at low speeds. Because the cell is installed above the highest point in the plumbing system, gas would form at the top of the cell to a point the plates were exposed. Running at high speeds cleared the gas bubble, but that's not why I purchased a VS pump. I replaced the unit with an RJ-Series SWG. No more issues.

 

[cameradude]

Your last PoolMath log is from 2+ years ago. It shows a CYA of 50.
It is recommended to have a CYA of 70 with an SWG. This will help slow the UV burnoff of chlorine and the cell won't have to run as long to keep the FC in the target range - FC/CYA Levels .

Based on how you have chosen to manage your water, there is no cell that won't need to be manually cleaned from time to time - whether that be an acid wash, using a popsicle stick or blowing the calcium off with a high pressure hose nozzle. Every time you acid wash the cell, you erode more of the plating and shorten the cell life.

Once you get the TA down around the 50-60 range, pH will rise slower. It will be easy to keep the CSI in the 0.00 to -0.30 range without needing to "hyper-manage" your pool water. I usually check my pH weekly and the chlorine a few times a week (still dialing the SWG in as the air temp increases). I do the other tests monthly. So max 5 minutes a couple times a week and 15 minutes once a month for testing.

Personally, I wouldn't have a Circupool SJ series -
1 - higher required salt level
2 - I believe the percentage adjustments are in 10% steps or greater
3 - It's their entry level, basic SWG

I have no experience with the CMP offering and haven't seen any posts here about them (although I really haven't looked that hard).

If I was looking for a new SWG package for a pool without automation, I would look at the Circupool RJ series... the RJ60+ is well suited for your application. The RJ60+ can produce up to 3 pounds of chlorine gas in a 24 hour period. A larger cell should last longer (in theory) as long as you keep the CSI slightly negative.

There is no way your CH is staying at 400 unless you are using softened water or really soft well water in the PHX area. Unsoftened city tap water is usually 190-250 in most parts of the greater Phoenix area. You will evaporate at least 12,000 gallons (probably more) from your pool yearly. My 12,000 gallon pool evap rate is 1 to 1.5 times the pool volume yearly. This can be verified by the increase in CH.

Add your TF100 and K1766 test kits to your signature.
How old are the reagents?

Again, what is the TA and CH of your fill water?

Yeah, I don't pay for the app, so it doesn't save my results, it just shows them to me on my phone. When things get screwy I keep a log on paper, but if things look good I generally don't transfer them to paper.

I tested my CYA last week, it is at 70.

I agree, the way I choose to manage my water requires a cell to be cleaned. I know acid damages the cell, that's why I have been asking about people's impressions of the systems that don't require the acid.

TA management has always been challenging. I have an aerator that I keep screwed into one of my returns, when I am lowering my PH I have tried adding a little acid every couple of hrs instead of adding it all at once, which helps. But my TA rarely stays at 60 or below, it seems most happy at 70. Then I go out of town for a couple of weeks and things sneak up a bit.

Yes, I like the RJ-60, except that given how I choose to manage my water, it will require acid washing.

I am also baffled by my CH readings, but I can only tell you what I see. I didn't believe it myself so I have taken my water to 2 different pool stores and got almost identical results (I know, I don't like pool store testing either but I wanted a couple more data points). I did a partial water exchange several years ago, my CH after that was 250. Over the next year and a half, it rose to around 400 and it has stayed around there since. Over the winter (when I slack on my chemistry management) I do get calcium "dust" in the bottom of the pool that my cleaner picks up (it is white, when I put acid on it, it sizzles), and before the pool is warm enough to swim in I do a thorough vacuum to get what the cleaner does not. Maybe that is why?

I got my new reagents for the TF100 a couple of months ago (during the sale).

Sorry, I neglected (old brain forgot!) where you had asked about the TA and CH of the fill water, I have never tested it before and won't be able to until tomorrow.

 

[proavia]

Yes, I like the RJ-60, except that given how I choose to manage my water, it will require acid washing.

Based on how you choose to mange your water, I doubt there is a SWG made that won't require acid washing or other additional constant maintenance - no matter if it reverses polarity or what the manufacturer claims.

As for your CH - something isn't right there. Will wait for you to post CH and TA numbers of your fill water.

 

[cameradude]

CMP took over Saline Generation Systems after they went belly-up a few years ago. I suspect the CMP Power Clean is what SGS used to market as the Breeze series. You may find more info and reviews searching SGS Breeze series.

The cell design does make it easy to clean. Pull out the electrodes, high pressure rinse, and bit of nudging with a paint stick removed all scale. The primary problem I had with the cell design occurred at low speeds. Because the cell is installed above the highest point in the plumbing system, gas would form at the top of the cell to a point the plates were exposed. Running at high speeds cleared the gas bubble, but that's not why I purchased a VS pump. I replaced the unit with an RJ-Series SWG. No more issues.

Yes, the old Breeze is the new CMP. I have found a bunch of reviews by searching with the name Breeze, the reviews are generally favorable, Discount Salt Pool has them on its chart (Compare and Review Saltwater Chlorine Generator Prices and Features | DSP), it rates the SJ45 at a 91.8 value score and the RJ60 at 98 value score. I am willing to have 'only' a value score of 91.8 if it means I don't need to acid wash!

I have found other reviews helpful (that is why I am considering the systems I listed) but I tend to favor the people on this forum's opinions. This is a self-selected group of people with no profit motive! There aren't a ton of people here who have posted about them in the past so I thought I would start a new thread to lure them from the shadows.

Does the cell have to be installed above the highest point in the plumbing? I will be doing the PVC work myself and had planned to lower it a bit below the return from my filter.

 

[cameradude]

Based on how you choose to mange your water, I doubt there is a SWG made that won't require acid washing or other additional constant maintenance - no matter if it reverses polarity or what the manufacturer claims.

As for your CH - something isn't right there. Will wait for you to post CH and TA numbers of your fill water.

I haven't thought of acid washing 3 times a year as an onerous amount of maintenance, it is only a problem because it is shortening my cell life.

Just so I understand what you are saying, I am wrong in thinking that instead of acid washing 3 times a year, rinsing and hand cleaning the other kind of cell 3 times a year is not better?

Tone is difficult to get across in writing, so I want you to know that my question above is sincere. As I said in my original post, I am here to see if my thinking about this is correct. There is a great number of things I do not know a lot about so I am very comfortable asking for help and I appreciate those that give it,

 

[proavia]

Don't worry about the tone, I certainly didn't take it as anything but asking for info. Communicating in this medium can be difficult at times

There is no "other kind of cell". Given your water chemistry management, all cells will need to be clean by some method. Use the least intrusive on the plates to start and save the acid washing as a last resort.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Does the cell have to be installed above the highest point in the plumbing? I will be doing the PVC work myself and had planned to lower it a bit below the return from my filter.

That's the way I read it. From Circupool SJ Series manual:

The Cell should be positioned 6” above the highest plumbing point (includes filter ports or height of heater, if present), installed in the return line using two 90° elbows (not included) and two straight pieces of PVC pipe as risers (not included). The Cell must be installed horizontally with ports facing down. When positioning the Cell, the inlet side of the Cell Housing is imprinted with an arrow pointing up.

 

[cameradude]

Don't worry about the tone, I certainly didn't take it as anything but asking for info. Communicating in this medium can be difficult at times

There is no "other kind of cell". Given your water chemistry management, all cells will need to be clean by some method. Use the least intrusive on the plates to start and save the acid washing as a last resort.

By "other type of cell" I was referring to the cells used by the 2 systems I am asking about, they are designed so you can completely remove the plates from the cell casing to thoroughly clean the plates manually, essentially eliminating the need to ever use acid.

Jump to 4:00 in this video to see what I am talking about:

To me, that makes them different than all of the other cells I am familiar with, that's why I called it "other."
That is the benefit I am trying to get, it just seems like a better way to clean.

 

[Oly]

Yes those plates are much easier to clean (without using acid) than the RJ60+

 

[proavia]

By "other type of cell" I was referring to the cells used by the 2 systems I am asking about, they are designed so you can completely remove the plates from the cell casing to thoroughly clean the plates manually, essentially eliminating the need to ever use acid.

Jump to 4:00 in this video to see what I am talking about:


(In case I didn't embed this right:

)
To me, that makes them different than all of the other cells I am familiar with, that's why I called it "other."
That is the benefit I am trying to get, it just seems like a better way to clean.

Ah - now I get it. I thought you were referring to cells that reverse polarity to help keep the cell clean.

 

[cameradude]

Just to update, after reviewing some of the complaints about each of the units here, it seems like the CircuPool SJ seems pretty picky about salt levels (likes to be around 4,000ppm) and temperatures (seems to shut off below ~75 F). Most comments are from a year or two ago.

This has me leaning toward the CMP unit.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

$1250 seems like a good value for a 60K gallon system. Let us know how it works out.