Am I on the right path? New pool owner - inherited a beast?

[Amajo]

Hi all! Happy to be here and posting. I've been reading pool school and all resources for the past few weeks and am hoping I'm on the right path, though I believe the only answer at this point is to drain and replace. I am trying to avoid right now. We did accidentally drain and replace about 6-8 inches three weeks ago. Water is expensive here.

- Never owned a pool; purchased home one month ago;
- History from previous owners: ran heater at 92F all season (we have not had heater on, brand new heater); pool always covered except during swim time; metal problem; had been using approx 9 trichlor tabs per week in an auto chlorinator set wide open at 5; had a CuLator in the skimmer; told us to go to Leslie's for the water testing.

Us:
- started at Leslie's for initial testing; ran through one round of Metal Remover and Soda Ash, started doing research and realized I wasn't going through the "buy all the chemicals at the same place that tests your water"; continued to go to Leslie's for the "free testing" over about a two week period, got three totally different opinions from three different employees. One did tell us the only thing we could do is drain water, the rest tried to get us to start going through this huge chemical regimen, then we ordered Taylor 2006C. During this time, was using granular CAL HYPO shock until we ran out, continued using the trichlor tabs but staff told us to dial those WAY back, close to "1" on the chlorinator setting (vs "5") and should only use 3 tabs max per week due to stabilizer and high CYA.

Leslie's test results in order of date we went in (period of two weeks 7/30 - 8/14)
FC 1.22, 7.37, 1.4, 0.25
TC 2.39, 11.57, 2.52, 0.72
pH 6.4, 6.3, 6.3, 6.5
TA 0 (adjusted), 0, 0, 0
Calcium 72, 79, 89, 92
CYA 137, 125, 167, 177
Iron 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1
Copper 3.1, 3.3, 3.1, 3
Phosphates 139, 186, 212, 203
TDS 600, 500, 800, 500

Our testing since we got the Taylor 2006C:
August 14
FC 0.8 (I know, I know!) This I believe due to dialing back the chlorinator from the 5 setting to the 1 setting and not replacing the tabs timely
CC 0.6
pH Less than 7.0, added 30 drops of base to get to 7.0
CYA over 100
TA 45
CH - not sure I'm testing this correctly, never really red to begin with, more of magenta/purple and never turned blue
Action: Added 8lbs of Soda Ash, continued using trichlor and I believe we had one more round of CAL HYPO shock
Trichlor tabs were empty, added 9 tabs to the chlorinator, set it at "2"

August 17
FC 4.0
CC 0.8
pH Less than 7.0, added 32 drops to get to 7.2
Action: Added 6 lbs of Soda Ash

August 18
pH less than 7.0, added 27 drops to get to 7.2
Action: Added 3-4 lbs of baking soda

August 19
FC 1.6
CC 0.8
TA 150 (darn, added too much baking soda)
pH less than 7.0, added 33 drops to get between 7.2 and 7.4, added 35 to get to 7.4
Action: Went and bought household bleach from Aldi (no stabilizer), 6% Added one jug (121 oz)

August 22
Checked trichlor tabs, still 4 left (used 5 in approx 1 week) - changed setting from "2" to "3" based on low FC numbers
FC 2.2
CC 0.6
pH under 7.0, 15 drops got it to 7.0, 20 got it to 7.2, 27 got it to 7.4, 35 got it to 7.6
CYA over 100
TA 130 (do you wait for the entire sample to turn red vs pink? And ignore a flash of red which disappears?)
CH - still can't figure it out, never really turned red, but did turn sort of pink. added 80 drops at 25mL and color was pinky purple but never turned blue
Action: Added 121 oz of 6% bleach; checked two hours later and FC was 4.8 and CC was 0.8

August 24
FC 4.6
CC 0.8
pH below 7.0, added 10 drops to get to 7.0, 25 drops to get to 7.4
TA 140-150 range (used concentrated method)
Action: Added two jugs (142 oz) of Aldi 6% bleach

Visual observations - pool is typically pretty clear although I feel like I may be seeing some green tints if I squint my eyes just so. Spouse says it's just time of day and sun coming through trees. Maybe I'm being paranoid. We added two jugs of bleach tonight because I don't want to get any lower chlorine and with CYA so high, my understanding is we should have FC higher than we do. Purchased two 4lb boxes of Borax, but haven't used them yet. Completely out of CAL HYPO "shock" and hadn't planned on buying any - trying to go the household bleach method?? I know the trichlor just makes our CYA worse, but paranoid to turn it back down or get rid of it until I can make sure I know how to maintain a high enough FC. The pool does not get a ton of use (just two of us, 3-4 times a week) and remains covered almost all the time except when swimming or directly after adding chemicals (tons of trees around pool including three birch trees constantly shedding leaves). Filter is set to auto run 11 hours a day during the day - we have been running it much more than that and overnight each time we add any chemicals. We backwashed our DE filter 3x in one sitting for a minute each time to try and get rid of water. Still learning maintenance and not even sure if we are supposed to do something else with the filter (such as adding DE powder or manual cleaning). There is fine light brown dust in the edges of the liner going to the deep end of the pool, I thought it was maybe DE but could be dirt or dead algae. We have been vacuuming once a week. We have the heater off. A few days ago saw what I believe to be algae around the inside of the skimmer - brushed it off.

I always thought I could manage a pool - grew up watching my Grandpa do his, and it was pretty easy looking. But we have been very frustrated. Trying to just enjoy it...but......

Any advice would be appreciated re: continue trichlor (we have tons) or not, if so - how much? Or just go to bleach (any idea how much we should be adding)? Should we go the Borax route for pH? Will we be able to replace water during either close or open (and preferably an early open in March to take advantage of cheaper water prices - $2/1000 gallons vs $13/1000 gallons. In Wichita, the price of water is significantly cheaper from Dec thru end of March.

Best regards and thank you in advance for any insight or recommendations. Please note that we are trying to avoid a huge pool drain, but that's probably going to have to happen at some point??

 

[HermanTX]

Welcome to TFP.
You have vinyl pool so CH not as critical. It is best to do that test with a 10ml sample then 10 drops R-0010, 3 drops R-0011L and you multiple your drops (R-0012) by 25. This saves on reagents. Test your tap water to see what you get there and hopefully that will show a quicker result. At least you get to practice to know you are doing it correctly.

Best to use Borax to raise pH. Need to get that into the mid-7's. That should be a priority.

For Chlorine - go back to Leslie's and purchase their Liquid Chlorine - it is 12.5% and much easier to raise and maintain your FC level plus you do not add any further CYA. Your tablets/pucks add CYA and it takes a longer time to get a change in FC level.

Get the PoolMath app to track your data and help you calculate what to add and how much to add.

 

[HermanTX]

If you have a DE filter and did a backwash then you need to add DE to it or you can damage your grids. Does the filter have a pressure gauge? What is that pressure? Do you have DE powder? That can be purchased at pool store.
You need to find out if your pump is a single speed or variable speed. My guess is single speed but really need to confirm that.

 

[HKBob]

I’m right there with you bud! New here - but they’ve already cleared my pool and saved me a Benji (returned stupid chemicals). From what I’ve been learning my 3 buckets of “chlorine shortage” trichlor pucks are probably gonna go quietly into the night since I can’t even sell them on Craigslist in good conscience. (Do they burn well?)

 

[wireform]

Hi and welcome. To put this in plain language stop using pucks of any kind. Your raising the CYA sky high making whatever chlorine ineffective and it's reeking havoc with the PH. You'll need to do a diluted CYA Test with a drain and refill or Water exchange based on the test outcome. You have to lower the CYA to a more manageable level to bring the pool decent levels.

 

[Deb04]

Please stop using the pucks. They are making your situation worse. They’re adding CYA and lowering pH. Liquid chlorine only for chlorine. Pucks can be used judiciously and appropriately under certain circumstance, e.g., you’re CYA is a bit low and your going on vacation. When your CYA is over 100, they’re just evil round disks ready to kill your water.

in Addition to the high CYA, you’ve got a copper problem. If there Is BLUE anywhere on the puck label, the pucks are making that worse too.

Solution to both high CYA and copper is to drain. To try to help you limp along until the rates go down, do you ever get good, heavy rain storms? If, say, 2 inches is predicted, drain 2 inches in advance to get free water. Bonus points if you can direct some gutter flow Into the pool.

if we say the CYA is 130, your target FC is 14-16. That’s going to take a fair amt of liquid chlorine to get it there, but if you don’t the pool will go green. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow. But soon, and for the rest of your life ( sorry, wrong movie’). if you get algae, that will take a WHOLE lot of liquid chlorine and the cost of draining will start to look like an acceptable alternative.

Have you done a dilution test to try to estimate what CYA actually is? If it’s really 160, or 200, FC needs to be higher.

Remember, every puck is increasing your CYA. No more of them, not even what’s already in the chlorinator.

there’s a puck shortage. Sell what you have to pay for new water and liquid chlorine. There are people who use them appropriately. The people who don’t, tell them about TFP so they can learn when it’s ok to use a puck and when it isn’t.

 

[aussieta]

here is how to do the diluted cya test

Please explain how to dilute CYA test if over 100

Hey all! My old neighbor just bought a home with a pool and he I'd trying to understand how to best care for his pool. Fortunately it seems like he hired a pool service that actually understands how high CYA can be detrimental to a clear sparkly pool. My neighbor said the guy tested it and CYA...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[TexEdmond]

I can’t even sell them on Craigslist in good conscience.

FWIW I gave away my last couple pounds of trichlor powder to a neighbor for free in a matter of minutes online. If you can't in good conscience sell them, maybe consider selling them for the appropriate secondhand rate and making a donation to the website? Some future user of this site has a couple hundred bucks in their pocket they're just DYING to give to the pool store for some tabs. Give it to the website instead, and maybe that'll be the straw that breaks their camel's back and then they'll come here and be a user and maybe donate to us again?

(sorry, my dad was a dentist and I was thinking about how every dentist's office seems to have a dish of candy at the receptionist's desk... KEEP EM COMING BACK!)

 

[Kellyp]

For your testing questions regarding color change: colors are not always what is described here. TA will definitely turn from green to a very bright barbie pink, before that happens it will flash red, then turn red, but that will not be the end, the hot pink will

Chlorine: can sometimes turn cloudy instead of totally clear like water, but yet still without color

Calcium: mine is never what I call purple and blue, the colors are much fainter, the lightest clear lavender and blue so pale you have to watch closely to see the change.

The change is what you watch for. You KEEP adding drops until the last drop you added makes no difference in the color change, then subtract that last drop from your total (the one that made no color change).

Keep in mind that metals can interfere with the calcium test.

When testing for CC's, as soon as the water is clear, it is done. The sample will turn pink again if left to sit, you can disregard that.

 

[HermanTX]

3 buckets of “chlorine shortage” trichlor pucks are probably gonna go quietly into the night since I can’t even sell them on Craigslist in good conscience.

Keep them. They store well and if you go on vacation you can use them in a floater to help with maintaining your FC level since you are using LC now.

 

[HKBob]

Fair point!

 

[Amajo]

Hi all, thank you for the replies. I've found a bit more info out about my pump and will update signature line.

1. HermanTX: It's a Hayward Super Pump Model SP2607X10. It appears to be a single speed.
2. HermanTX: I did not add DE to the filter, I don't think we have DE. We will go buy some. Should we simply add in to the skimmer basket or do we need to open up the filter to clean/inspect first? I will search for some threads on this.
3. HermanTX: The filter does have a pressure gauge. Right now it's at 20PSI. The lowest "norm" that I've seen it was 16PSI. The previous owner says he starts it at 16PSI and will backwash at or before 28PSI. The gauge has a "start" at 27PSI and a "clean" at 38PSI. That's not what we are seeing with the pressure at all and not what previous owner has said.
4. I have closed the chlorinator, so no more pucks! We have two boxes of borax (4lbs each) - that's all Target had. We will add both full boxes today. We are out of liquid chlorine bleach, so we will try and go buy some today as well.
5. Deb04: We do get some rain. Next time there is rain expected, we will open up the pool (and just have to clean out all the debris as the pool is surrounded by many trees). The other thing we could do is keep the cover on, see how much rain the cover collects, then drain based on that amount and fill the pool with the water collected on the cover. I will get a rain barrel, that may help as well.
6. Deb04: I have not yet done a diluted CYA test, I will do that this evening. Per Leslie's results were 137, 125, 167, 177 - however, I will start testing diluted CYA.

ACTIONS we will be taking (are we missing something?)
1. discontinued use of the pucks (done)
2. add 8lbs of borax (will do this evening)
3. increase FC levels based on CYA level, SO instead of the 2-4 acceptable FC range, we will start at least trying for the 14-16 FC range to start with and base on the CYA / FC chart. Will go buy more bleach from ALDI or see if Leslie's has liquid chlorine (they haven't the last couple of times we went in).
4. Start planning for when we will replace water (try for some rain replacement for now)
5. Figure out the DE situation with our filter/grids.

Some additional questions:
1. Do we need to be checking FC and adding chlorine each day, in the evening?
2. Is it OK to keep our pool cover in use when not swimming (we usually try and leave open for 30 mins - 1 hour after adding chemicals) - or do we need to leave it open to help with pH?
3. Since we are not "shocking" any more, and we can't SLAM until pH is OK, is there something else we should be doing to try not to go down the green pool path (besides getting FC up to the 14+ range)?

Thanks everyone! Any additional advice is appreciated. Have a great day.

 

[TexEdmond]

I don't think it's necessary to add borax right now, until you've settled out this TA / pH thing

You also might try Home Depot for chlorine. They've usually got plenty of new product in stock down here. Try to get as new product as possible, and avoid anything older than 90 days.

Pool Essentials Pool Chlorinating Liquid (4-Pack) 26489355392 - The Home Depot

Pool Essentials Chlorinating Liquid is used for everyday swimming pool water sanitization. This easy to use liquid chlorine pool chemical effectively cleans pool water and kills bacteria. The fast acting

www.homedepot.com

Here's the page to decipher date codes on bleach:

Chlorine Date Code Decoder - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

1. Do we need to be checking FC and adding chlorine each day, in the evening?
2. Is it OK to keep our pool cover in use when not swimming (we usually try and leave open for 30 mins - 1 hour after adding chemicals) - or do we need to leave it open to help with pH?
3. Since we are not "shocking" any more, and we can't SLAM until pH is OK, is there something else we should be doing to try not to go down the green pool path (besides getting FC up to the 14+ range)?

1.) Yes, check and add daily. I'm not sure it matters what time of day unless you're testing for overnight chlorine loss with an active algae situation.
2.) Usually a cover will help the pool retain chlorine. I'm not sure what's going on with your pH readings. edit: I don't think I know how to drive your pH comparator block. Researching that now.
3.) It's going to be very expensive to try to maintain a safe level of chlorine with CYA "over 100." It really might be a good idea to consider the water swap / partial drain sooner than later. You also appear to have significant copper levels that need addressed, given the previous owner was using a copper device. Our CYA was right up there where yours is a few months ago. It took a couple of days but getting that number under control really changed the whole pool and my blood pressure for the better. City water is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as chlorine. If you ever have to SLAM your pool, your chlorine requirement will be double at CYA100 versus 50, and it just gets worse from there.

 

[Amajo]

I don't think it's necessary to add borax right now, until you've settled out this TA / pH thing

You also might try Home Depot for chlorine. They've usually got plenty of new product in stock down here. Try to get as new product as possible, and avoid anything older than 90 days.

Pool Essentials Pool Chlorinating Liquid (4-Pack) 26489355392 - The Home Depot

Pool Essentials Chlorinating Liquid is used for everyday swimming pool water sanitization. This easy to use liquid chlorine pool chemical effectively cleans pool water and kills bacteria. The fast acting

www.homedepot.com

Here's the page to decipher date codes on bleach:

Chlorine Date Code Decoder - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

1.) Yes, check and add daily. I'm not sure it matters what time of day unless you're testing for overnight chlorine loss with an active algae situation.
2.) Usually a cover will help the pool retain chlorine. I'm not sure what's going on with your pH readings. Are you using 5 red drops in the red/yellow comparator block?
3.) It's going to be very expensive to try to maintain a safe level of chlorine with CYA "over 100." It really might be a good idea to consider the water swap / partial drain sooner than later. You also appear to have significant copper levels that need addressed, given the previous owner was using a copper device. Our CYA was right up there where yours is a few months ago. It took a couple of days but getting that number under control really changed the whole pool and my blood pressure for the better. City water is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as chlorine. If you ever have to SLAM your pool, your chlorine requirement will be double at CYA100 versus 50, and it just gets worse from there.

Thank you! We will consider figuring out the drain/refill. With our CYA levels, that would be about 75% of our pool water. I know we can't do that all at once.

Isn't the Borax to try and get our pH raised up? We checked Home Depot, they say they are out of liquid chlorine. We checked Leslie's, they also said they have none. Back to ALDI to buy the 6% stuff. for the pH, I am following the Taylor 2006C instructions. I believe it is 5 red, but I don't have the instructions in front of me. pH is very low. re: City water, they are charging us over $13 per 1000 gallons. Our last water bill was almost $600 and that was only filling about 6 inches of the pool. We have two koi ponds, and drip/sprinkler with 7 zones. Trying to figure out the water usage is crazy.

 

[TexEdmond]

TA 130 (do you wait for the entire sample to turn red vs pink? And ignore a flash of red which disappears?)

TA test will flash red a few times, then turn solid dull red, then turn barbie pink. Keep adding drops until it stops changing color, ignore the last extra drop that doesn't change anything. Two major errors I noticed in my TA testing early on: first I wasn't counting drops til it stopped turning barbie pink. That means my TA reading was 20-30ppm low. Then, I read the instructions and was wiping the bottle tip with a paper towel that was wet with fill water (high TA) which I suspect was neutralizing some of that acid reagent before going into the sample. That was good for another 10-20PPM error when I tested again without wiping the tip.

 

[TexEdmond]

I know we can't do that all at once.

It's my understanding with a vinyl liner that'd be a very bad idea. For what it's worth, I did mine in two large chunks, about 30% one time and about 50% the second. I have a plaster pool but it still took quite a long time. Also I'm on a well and it's so easy to just not pay attention to the well's power usage given we've got air conditioners running on the same meter.

re: City water, they are charging us over $13 per 1000 gallons. Our last water bill was almost $600 and that was only filling about 6 inches of the pool. We have two koi ponds, and drip/sprinkler with 7 zones. Trying to figure out the water usage is crazy.

That is so devastating. My goodness. It makes sense you'd be gun-shy about taking that plunge. That might be more than $400 worth of water just to do this one thing.

Isn't the Borax to try and get our pH raised up?

I'm not a borax expert, we've not decided to take that step yet. I do know borax is generally used in combination with a TA at the lower end of the recommended levels, and you're off the charts on the high side of things. Best recommendation here for raising pH with high TA is to aerate the pool, but there's something that doesn't feel right with the testing. You're adding reasonably large amounts of soda ash and baking soda to your pool and seeing a huge spike in TA without a corresponding rise in pH. 14 lbs of soda ash in your pool's volume should have raised pH by 2.2, and my pool was always floating up to 7.8 or higher every couple days with TA numbers in your range. I'd really want to drill down and make sure I had a reliable pH reading first before making any other big changes. Tabs are acidic and now that you've stopped using them hopefully you'll see a faster rise in pH with aeration.

Edit: I misunderstood your initial post about adding drops to the pH test, sorry.

If you've got some TA in the pool now, the only thing I can think of to bring your pH up safely is to make lots and lots of bubbles in your pool. Go for a swim, set up a bubbler, build an aerator tube, turn on a water feature / spillway and let it run.

 

[HermanTX]

I just want to ensure we are all on the same page:
Key points of pH and Alkalinity relationship
Lower pH - use muriatic....TA also comes down
Raise pH - use borax.....it has little effect on TA.
Lower TA - acid and aeration method....see Pool School
Raise TA - use baking soda....it has little effect on pH

So if you are not going to drain your pool you really need to address your low pH as that can cause damage. The borax will help raise the pH without affecting the TA values.

The aeration point on raising pH is a slow process but it was really meant to address high TA issues. It is applicable if you can add MA as that lowers the TA and pH and then use aeration to raise pH. But with your pH currently below 7, it is suggested you address that first.

The acid/aeration process to lower TA:

1. Add acid to lower your PH to between 7.0 and 7.2 (this also lowers TA)
2. Aerate until PH rises to around 7.6 (the only way to raise PH without any affect on TA)
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you reach the desired TA.

I did not add DE to the filter, I don't think we have DE. We will go buy some. Should we simply add in to the skimmer basket or do we need to open up the filter to clean/inspect first? I will search for some threads on this.

My suggestion is if you have the time, turn off your pump, bleed off the pressure and open up your filter and wash down the grids again to remove any debris. You will need to open the bottom drain. This ensure you have a clean grid to start.
Then put the filter top on put the drain plug back in and start the pump. Bleed off the air out of the top of filter and then add DE to the nearest skimmer to the filter.
If you do not have the time and I think you said that you recently cleaned it, then just do a backwash. You do not need to take it apart but go through a backwash cycle to clean off any debris. Then add DE at the nearest skimmer.

If you have a 36sq ft DE filter (it should be marked on the label on the filter) then add 4 pounds of DE, if 48sq ft add 5 pounds and if 60sq ft add 6 pounds. A pound is about the size of a large coffee can (if they still make those today). DE normally comes in 25lb bags.

The filter does have a pressure gauge. Right now it's at 20PSI. The lowest "norm" that I've seen it was 16PSI. The previous owner says he starts it at 16PSI and will backwash at or before 28PSI. The gauge has a "start" at 27PSI and a "clean" at 38PSI. That's not what we are seeing with the pressure at all and not what previous owner has said.

If you clean or backwash the filter as suggested above, then when you add the DE that becomes your "clean" pressure. The outside of the dial on your gauge can rotate - which probably got knocked and showing a high pressure as start and clean points. Just rotate the "start arrow" to whatever you have as the starting clean pressure.
You should backwash your when your pressure reaches 25% over the start clean point. So if you start at 20psi then the backwash point is 25psi. This keeps your grids from getting overly dirty.

You only need to fully clean (disassemble) your DE filter once or twice a year unless you have a lot of debris in your pool that finds its way to the filter (not captured by pool cleaner or the skimmer or pump basket.

Hope this helps. I think the biggest issue is if you elect not to address your CYA level then you need to address the pH level now. If you plan to drain (soon) to lower your CYA then your pH will get adjusted as will your TA with your new fill water and all can be dealt with later.

 

[TexEdmond]

So if you are not going to drain your pool you really need to address your low pH as that can cause damage. The borax will help raise the pH without affecting the TA values.

I'm here to learn and might be out of my depth talking directly to OP on this, thank you for chiming in. Does it concern you that OP has added 14 pounds of soda ash and 3 pounds of baking soda in the last 11 days with no noticeable change in pH and it's still measuring off the charts low? That seems weird to me, but I've always found myself in the opposite situation where I'm fighting high TA and rising pH. So, I have no frame of reference, just a calculator.

 

[Newdude]

Does it concern you that OP has added 14 pounds of soda ash and 3 pounds of baking soda in the last 11 days with no noticeable change in pH and it's still measuring off the charts low?

Maybe, maybe not. Say the PH is really a 5. It would take 84 lbs to raise it to 7. But the test only reads to 6.8 so only a few pounds are recommended. The new test reads 6.8 when the PH is now 5.3 (?). It may take many tries to get a readable PH in range.

 

[Newdude]

@TexEdmond this is yet again where there is no learning like doing. I had read this all 100 times and had a grip on it but when we moved I had to put it all together like a detective. The previous owners were all too fond of powdered shock and nuked the pool upon leaving to make their last week and my first one covered. It was good intentions but I moved in with a bleached liner, a 30+ FC and 300+ CYA. (I’m sure it was stupid high in the first place). But the 6.8 PH looked easily manageable.

added
Still 6.8
Added
Still 6.8
Added
Still 6.8
repeat
Repeat 3 more times

Realize that much acid in the shock TANKED the PH well beyond 6.8

added twice more
Readable at 7.4.

seeing the theories in person hammered them home like no other and more of the teachings ‘clicked’.