CYA from 60 to 0 ppm

This thread strikes a familiar note. We where out of town for three days. Before I left, I checked the pool - clear, FC 2, CC 0, PH 7.2, CYA 20ish, TA 180, Salt 3800ppm. I had the IC 40 set to 60% and pump run times of low speed 17.5 hours and high speed 2.5 hrs (1 hour morning during the cleaner run, two 15 minutes burst during the day, and 1 hour in the evening) for a total of 20 hours a day. I've never had to run my generator that high (i20-40% range in the past), but I was loosing the FC battle. The CC is always 0 or occasionally up to .2, but never higher. My FC kept creeping toward 1.

Two days before we left the PH was about 7.4. The day before I left, I gave the cell a quick acid bath thinking the cell may have some scaling and causing it to not be as efficient and set it for a 24 hour 100% boost. I also dropped about 3 lbs of CYA in the skimmers thinking I need to bring the CYA up. I've always had problems keeping the CYA number in the 70-80 range, but I've attributed it to backwashing the sand filter and all the splash jumps off the diving board by the teenage kids. Prior to the 3 lbs, I'd already added about 8 lbs so far this summer. Whenever I'm out of bleach and the pool needs to be shocked I add 1-2 lbs of 47% di-chlor, so I figured I'm adding a little CYA along the way. The day we left, the pool was at the first numbers listed above except maybe the CYA. I didn't check CYA since I didn't think the 3 lbs would be fully dissolved. I attributed the drop in PH to the addition of CYA.

The part that strikes a chord is when I returned from our trip (3 days), the pool was milky, FC .2, CC 5, CYA 0, and PH 7.0. Friends opened the cover once the first day we were gone to swim for a couple of hours, but that was the only time the pool was uncovered. Another familiarity was twice in the prior 14 days I had to pump a significant amount of water off my auto cover and pumped it into the pool through the skimmer that may have added accumulated dust/dirt. Once my family left the slide valve open. The 2 speed pump kicked to low and the slide water stopped flowing. Later the family assumed the slide was shut off and shut the pool cover. During the normal pump cycle in the morning the pump kicked up to high and the slide ran for an hour dumping water on top of a closed pool. The second time, we had a huge rain and since the pool was just about ready to be topped off, I pumped the rain water in through the skimmer. I'm sure I added all kinds of dust, pollen, fungi, whatever that had been blowing around settled on the cover. I've done this in the past and usually just drop about a gallon and a half of bleach in the pool. I added about a gallon and a half after each of these pumpings.

The pool cleared up almost completely in less then 2 days. I added close to 17 gallons of bleach, 4 lbs of di-chlor (between runs for more bleach, I keep some shock bags for just such an occasion), and the SWG at 100%. During that whole time my FC was never above ten. Although I didn't test FC immediately after adding, but usually 30 minutes later. At first, the CC was 6 and FC < 2. At the returns where I would expect the FC to be higher from the SWG, the FC was 1 and the CC was 8! I just kept adding chlorine, kept it covered so the sun won't burn it off, and open the cover periodically to let the CC air out.

I'll see how it looks in the morning, but most of the cloudiness is gone. I added another 3 gallons of bleach before shutting down for the night. Hopefully the FC will stabilize (it's already showing signs of that). The CC number is now down to 1 and the FC is going down much. Once the FC stabilizes I'll then backwash the filter before I add more CYA. I'll test the CYA in the morning, but I'm assuming it will be 0 and I'll need about 3 lbs.
 
Well, the problem wasn't anywhere near gone. I finally brought the FC level up to 15 for a 36 hour period before I wasn't losing FC. In the meantime I believe I went through another 45 (picture below) gallons of bleach with the cover closed and the swg at 100% to achieve it. I even strapped on the scuba gear prior to the shock treatment to scrub the joint where the main drains meet the vinyl and the underside of the cover (cool, a night dive). What ever was in my pool is now hopefully gone. I'm not sure what ate the CYA, but I have a feeling someone dumped (or took one in my skimmer) something in the pool while we were on vacation. We had and incident last night where someone opened the cover 1/2 way a threw a stolen bike in the pool. Makes me believe the original problem wasn't a "normal" occurrence. Still, kinda weird to lose all that CYA over 3 days.

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I would try a simple bucket test (for a leak) before I started blaaming the space wolfs and seamonsters. :mrgreen:


Edit: You did not lose any salt? Guess it may have been spacewolves afterall...

Edit2: What is the avialable chlorine on clorox?
 
6% Clorox Regular is 5.71% Available Chlorine (by weight) and is 6.17% "Trade" % which is the % Available Chlorine by volume. Most chlorinating liquid is quoted by Trade %. The rule that one gallon raises the FC in 10,000 gallons by the same numerical value as the percentage of chlorine is technically referring to the Trade %. So one gallon of 6% Clorox in 10,000 gallons raises the FC by 6.17. The "6%" in Clorox is the weight percentage of sodium hypochlorite in an ingredients list. It's confusing, but fortunately all these numbers are close enough to each other to not make this a big deal.
 
Bucket test wouldn't tell me much, the pool water level didn't move over the three days we were gone. Also, I lose very little salt. Maybe one 40 lb bag per summer and I don't recall adding any this year so far.

There is definitely something causing the CYA to drop. If some one did mess with the pool, I don't think anyone would be smart enough (or have the filter wrench) to open up my sand filter and drop a dead squirrel or road kill in the top before closing it back up. Even if they did, I don't know if it would do more than just consume prodigious amounts of CL. What type of household chemical might have this effect on CYA? Ammonia? What might a vandal add to a skimmer that could do this? I'm just stumped.
 
My CYA is off this year also. I started the season with 50ppm, I'm now at 40ppm after adding 4 lbs of stabilizer. I just added another 4 lbs and am waiting for it to dissolve.

I have had clear water all season. I did notice that the first 4 lbs dissolved in a single day! I put it in a hose and place in front of a return jet. This batch is taking closer to a week to dissolve. Not sure whats up with that.

I also thought that maybe I was not testing correctly, but this week I tested my friends pool and it tested at 80ppm both times. So it appears that my reagents are still good.

My SWG has struggled all season with such a low CYA that I've been augmenting with bleach all season.

Maybe this last 4 lbs will move it upwards ?
 
One thing people need to remember is to make sure that the SWCG cell does not run until all cyanuric acid has fully dissolved. When you add cyanuric to the skimmer, it goes into the filter and begins to dissolve. This will cause high concentration at the cell. I think that anytime anything needs to be added through the skimmer, the cell should be removed and a cell blank should be put in its place (IntelliChlor Electronic Chlorine Generator “dummy” cell P/N 520588), or at least the cell needs to be left turned off. Anytime you add chemicals (Salt, Cyanuric Acid, Calcium, pH increaser, Borax, Baking soda etc) it is important to make sure that the cell is turned off and that you allow the chemicals to fully dissolve before running the cell.
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Speculation: The cyanuric may be concentrated enough when added through a skimmer that it begins to be oxidized by the SWCG cell at the anode, by the Cl2 chlorine gas, or by the HOCl, with the hydrogen being reduce as normal at the cathode.

Possibly like this:

(2C3H3N3O3 – 18e-) + (9Cl2 + 18e-) + 6H2O --> 3N2 + 6CO2 + 6H+ + 6H2(g) + 18Cl-

Or, the cell may cause the highly concentrated Cyanuric acid to precipitate out.
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A few more notes that seem relevant:
Chlorine should not be put in the skimmer while the cell is in place. People with a SWCG should also avoid any use of Phos-free due to the precipitates it causes which can clog or scale in the cell. Cells should not be placed before a heater due to the high chlorine levels generated by the cell which can damage the heater. However, putting a cell after a heater will send warmer water through the cell which tends to cause scale to form faster. Whenever possible, people should put the heater and cell on separate returns to avoid conflict. I think that anything that causes scaling or precipitation or that interferes with the proper operation of the cell may be affecting the Cyanuric as well.
 
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