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Thread: CYA and FC "problem" ??

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    CYA and FC "problem" ??

    Hello all,

    I must say I'm very thankful to the site and all of you for your help and assistance. I've learned a great deal (I think) in the past (almost) year that I've been reading here.

    Our family decided to take the 'plunge' and have our pool installed late last year. I hope the pool details appear in the signature.

    After the pool builder finished start-up, I was taking our pool water into Leslie's each week for testing (this was early this year as start-up occurred in mid-January).

    During this colder part of the year (we live in the Dallas area) our SWG was set to 50% with FC testing at ~5ppm and CYA levels were testing from 40-60ppm. I lowered the SWG output to 35% since it was still cold early this year and the FC dropped back to ~ 3ppm. The pump run time was only 5 hours/day.

    Around the first of April, I received my TF100 test kit and began performing the pool testing myself. My FC was essentially the same at ~3ppm (used the OTO test as it wasn't terribly critical with the colder water. My CYA levels were also essentially the same at around 45-50ppm

    As it began to get warmer this spring, I began trying to raise the CYA level by adding Di-chlor (mainly because I liked the idea of it dissolving quickly and I could leave the SWG alone or turn it off with the additional chlorine added).

    After adding 8 lbs of Di-chlor, I was surprised to find that my CYA hadn't changed - in fact it was closer to 40ppm than 50ppm.

    Later in April/early May, I turned up the pump run time to 8 hours/day but left the SWG output at 35%. FC seemed to remain fine at ~3ppm. I began adding granular CYA and have now added about 5 lbs -- now my CYA test has returned to around 50ppm (where it was earlier in the year). But I've added more than enough to go from 40ppm to 75ppm. I made sure not to backwash the filter for at least a week after CYA additions, so I don't believe I'm losing any that way.

    Out of curiosity I took a sample back to Leslie's and had them test the CYA -- they too reported 50ppm.

    Since it is now 90-100 degrees here, I've had trouble keeping the FC in the pool, I've now turned up the pump run time to 10 hours/day and the SWG output has been turned up to 50%. I'm seeing 2-2.5ppm FC (FAS-DPD) in the late evening around sundown and 1.5ppm FC first thing in the morning. Most days the bather load is quite low as our two daughters are just beginning to learn to swim.

    The salt level has also dropped from around 3400ppm upon start-up to about 2900ppm last weekend. I've added 50 lbs of salt and it is back up to reading 3200ppm. I get the feeling that there might be a leak due to the odd CYA behavior and the drop in salt concentration, but I'm also unsure about the SWG performance.

    One additional bit of information is that the Jandy wireless PDA which allows you to control the equipment remotely has shown on numerous occasions a "No Flow" error on its screen. There certainly is flow when this occurs or the pool wouldn't be circulating. I've had the cell apart and cleaned the sensors even though they looked as shiny as a silver spoon. The error would go away for a few days and then return. Lately I've noticed that when this error occurs I can turn off the pool pump for a few minutes and then turn it back on and it has the same effect (error goes away for a few days to a week). I've even watched the PDA screen as it cycles from "Equipment Status" to "AquaPure Output"... One time the AquaPure Output will show "50%" as it should when it is working normally and the next time it cycles it will show "No Flow".

    It seems odd to me that the SWG would report "No Flow", but I can see how if this happens during the day that the SWG would never be generating any chlorine. Is this perhaps just low CYA causing the lack of FC, or should the SWG be running even more?

    All in all, the pool has looked great from day 1 with one exception after a huge rain about 3 months ago. The water was very cloudy/murky, but some additional bleach and running the pump 24/7 cleared it up.


    Any opinions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


    My latest numbers:
    ===============
    FC: 2 ppm
    CC: 0 ppm
    pH: 7.5
    CYA: 50 ppm
    CH: 200 ppm
    TA: 100
    Salt: 3200ppm
    Temp: 88 F
    Sun: Full sun from ~10am till 6:00pm
    19K gal, gunite, mini-pebble
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (circulation),
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (waterfall),
    1 HP Polaris Halcyon booster pump (Polaris),
    60 sq.ft. Jandy DEL60 Filter
    Jandy PureLink w/ AquaPure 1400

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    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887

    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    A "No Flow" error means that there is less than some preset minimum amount of flow, not that the flow has completely stopped. Check that the skimmer baskets are clean, pump strainer basket is clean, and that the filter does not need to be backwashed/cleaned. Far far less likely, but also possible, the flow sensor might be broken.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Suwanee, GA
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    527

    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    I don't think you are too far off the mark as far as chlorine consumption. I also have the aquapure 1400 and I think I'm at 55% with 11-12 hour runtime and I hold about 2.5fc.

    Also, have you looked at the unit while the remote says no flow? What do the lights on the aquapure say? Does it report no flow when the cell is resting?
    Gary
    21k gal SW, IG Gunite PebbleSheen, 1HP Jandy, Jandy 340 filter, Polaris 280, 17' fiberglass slide w/ 2HP pump.

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    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    Jason,

    I usually check the skimmers and walk past the equipment pad to check the filter pressure and pump baskets daily. We do not normally have much debris fall into the pool, but some leaves and flower petals are normal to be seen daily.

    When the "No Flow" error first appeared on the PDA, the first things I double checked were the skimmers, pump baskets and filter pressure. (As an aside, the filter pressure has never seemed to rise much. If it rises by 2-3psi in a month that is a lot.) I made sure the baskets were cleaned and went ahead and backwashed the filter / added new DE.

    When the pool was back up and running, of course the "No Flow" error was gone. But within a week to ten days it occurred again. That's when I took the cell apart and checked / "cleaned" the sensors. I had the cell apart a week or two later when it occurred again but didn't find anything different. Since then I just check to make sure there is nothing in the baskets and that the filter pressure is good (when between backwashes), then I stop/start the pool pump and it seems to have the same effect as anything else.

    Crabboy,

    Kind of glad to hear your experience with the 1400, maybe the "No Flow" isn't happening as much as I think it is while we're away during the day.

    I have looked at our equipment panel when it shows "No Flow", the first time it occurred. I didn't know there were any lights to be seen. Our panel is labeled as an AquaLink RS and when you open it up the only lights you see are the ones associated with the equipment buttons (on/off).

    I took the front top panel off and I can see there are additional LEDs behind the equipment button panel in front. The LED's I can see (if I stand on my head) are CELL ON, CELL RESTING, FLOW, CELL REVERSING, ADD SALT, and SERVICE. I think that was all of them.

    The LEDs which were lit when I looked awhile ago were CELL ON, FLOW and CELL REVERSING. After a bit the CELL ON went off and the CELL RESTING came on. I'll have to wait until I get the "No Flow" error again and then check them. Not sure what to think.


    Thanks to you both.
    19K gal, gunite, mini-pebble
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (circulation),
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (waterfall),
    1 HP Polaris Halcyon booster pump (Polaris),
    60 sq.ft. Jandy DEL60 Filter
    Jandy PureLink w/ AquaPure 1400

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    Just a small update:

    I turned the pool pump on this morning around 9:30 and everything seemed fine. There was no "No Flow" error on the PDA and I watched it cycle on the PDA for about 10 minutes.

    Added some acid to the pool and then checked the PDA again about 10:00. There was the "No Flow" error again.

    I checked the outside panel by removing the service button board and behind it is where the LEDs and small LCD screen is located. It provided the same information as the PDA -- FLOW light was out.

    Checked the filter pressure - same as yesterday.
    Checked the skimmers - nothing but a few bugs.
    Checked the pump basket - maybe 3 small leaves.

    Stopped the pool pump for about a minute while I put the service panel back together, then started the pool pump again.

    "No Flow" error is gone and I'm monitoring now to see if it comes back in (say) the next 30 minutes or so. In the past it hasn't come back for a week to 10 days.

    I wish there was a way to disconnect the sensor cable from the cell briefly and then reconnect (like there is for the power running to the cell plates). But it appears the only disconnect is at the service panel end. I'd be curious to find out a disconnect would do the same thing as a pump re-start.
    19K gal, gunite, mini-pebble
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (circulation),
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (waterfall),
    1 HP Polaris Halcyon booster pump (Polaris),
    60 sq.ft. Jandy DEL60 Filter
    Jandy PureLink w/ AquaPure 1400

  6. Back To Top    #6
    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    SWSuburban Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    Just wanted to touch on the CYA issue again. I know you said you don't backwash for a week after adding, but any periodic backwashing will lower the CYA over time, because you are replacing the water with fresh water. So that could account for the small decrease in CYA. It certainly couldn't hurt with a SWG to have your CYA at 60-80. Can't help you with the flow thing....such fancy toys these days
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    Thanks frustratedpoolmom.

    Since the spring when weather began getting warming and I starting trying to "up" the CYA, I've only backwashed the filter twice.

    I tested the CYA again this morning because last Friday I added another 1.5 lbs of CYA via the skimmer with a nylon sock. It was gone from the sock in a couple of days but I waited until today to test it. The last test result was around 50ppm. I also took a sample to Leslie's about 10 days to 2 weeks ago just for the heck of it and they reported 50ppm as well.

    Today's CYA test result: ~45ppm

    By my calculations, which could definitely be wrong:
    ===========================================
    8 lbs Di-chlor should have added ~24ppm CYA to a 19,000 gal pool.
    6.5 lbs granular CYA should have added ~40ppm CYA to a 19,000 gal pool.

    I know CYA is slow to dissolve and backwashing has been minimal. After 8 lbs of Di-chlor and 6+ lbs of granular CYA, I would have certainly expected some noticable change in the CYA tests results, alas no.

    I think it is time to turn off the auto-fill and do a bucket test for a leak.

    If anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know because I'm baffled....
    19K gal, gunite, mini-pebble
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (circulation),
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (waterfall),
    1 HP Polaris Halcyon booster pump (Polaris),
    60 sq.ft. Jandy DEL60 Filter
    Jandy PureLink w/ AquaPure 1400

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    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,887

    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by gyoungers
    I think it is time to turn off the auto-fill and do a bucket test for a leak.
    My thoughts exactly.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  9. Back To Top    #9
    Guest

    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by gyoungers
    I think it is time to turn off the auto-fill and do a bucket test for a leak.
    BINGO! We have a winner!

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NE Florida
    Posts
    51

    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    My experience with Jandy Aquapure 1400 is that when you start gettting the "no flow" error, the sensor is on it's way out or is out. When it seems to be working with no error, check the return to see if there are hydrogen bubbles, indicating that the cell is acually on. Not sure why they **** out so much, I've gone through a few, I'm considering installing a suge protector on my main house panel since we get a lot of lightning and I've thought that may be part of the problem. I will say that I had a brand new one from Jandy that did't work form the get go.
    22K gallon free form pebble tec pool, non screened, surrounded by 3, 100+ year old Live Oaks (pure misery for 3 months every spring) elevated non heated spa, jandy cl340 filter, Pentair Inteliflo 3hp pump, Jandy 1400 swg, infloor cleaning system which has had all outlets removed due to uselessness of system with the organic load the pool carries and now low rp

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Re: CYA and FC "problem" ??

    Well, another update after the bucket test.

    I started a bucket test last night around 6:00pm.
    =========================================
    Turned off auto-fill and checked the float manually to ensure no water flow into the pool.
    Marked a white 5-gal button with a line inside about 3-in from the top and filled it with pool water to that line.
    Sat the bucket into the pool, and shut off the pump.
    Water from the pool rose to within about 5-in of the top on the outside of the bucket, marked the outside of the bucket.
    Returned the pump and other equipment to normal operation.

    Today at around 6:30pm I checked the bucket and BOTH the inside and outside water levels were down 1/2-in.

    It would seem from this test that there is no easily discernible leak, unless I've missed something in the way in which I conducted the test.

    So.....
    1) Lots of CYA gets added but never appears in test results - still around 50ppm.
    2) Salt concentration drops from 3400 to 2900ppm since January start-up - added ~50lbs salt.
    3) FC is borderline low at 2-2.5ppm but may not be related.
    4) Checked water usage:
    Dec - 3k
    Jan (fill month) - 33.7k
    Feb - 21k
    Mar - 8.9K
    Apr - 28.6k
    May - 27.3k

    I'm certain we were not watering the lawn & landscaping as much in Feb and Mar, so the larger water usage in Apr and May may just be a reflection of the beginning of regular watering.

    I've heard of some people getting poor or bad CYA, but since I've added it from two different sources (Di-chlor and granular CYA) I would think one would have given a rise in CYA that could be seen in testing.

    I may do this test again just to be sure -- but I'm even more baffled now.....
    19K gal, gunite, mini-pebble
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (circulation),
    2.5 HP Jandy Stealth pump (waterfall),
    1 HP Polaris Halcyon booster pump (Polaris),
    60 sq.ft. Jandy DEL60 Filter
    Jandy PureLink w/ AquaPure 1400

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