I'm gonna go against what others are saying here and say that it may have to do with that smaller pipe. You're showing the problem to yourself with your experiments. If a three way valve leaks air, it leaks air. The position doesn't matter. I have a working intelliflo display and it does the same thing. It's basically just a 2 inch loop to and from a Rubbermaid container down in the display and when I crank it up the basket and the clear PVC in the return line are solid white from all the little air bubbles that are generated. There just isn't enough water able to feed the pump so it cavitates. Limit your RPM to 3200 in the setup menu and call it a day.
Bubbles in Basket with new Intelliflo
- Thread starter markmac
- Start date
thepoolman said:
I was so frustrated I did a similar test. I just pumped from the pool and straight back. Basically same result, everything worked great and when I get to the upper end, bubbles, bubble, bubbles.
thepoolman said:
It's hard to describe, but given how fast the reaction happens when I toggle up just one more notch, it seems like it is the sheer power that is causing it. I can't imagine that many bubbles get sucked in under a split second of touching the button, and then stop by turning it down one notch. With a leak, I would expect it to start somewhat gradually and build up bubbles, but its nearly instantaneous with the push of the button.
I really do think that is the issue here. 1.5' pipe can only flow so much water. I limit almost every one of these I install around the 3000 rpm mark because it's just simply too much pump for most systems at full speed.
I was interested in this thread becaause I just upgraded to a Intelliflo VS. It's been on for a week now and I've not found any additional air in the basket of the VS at any RPM. I was wondering if you'd look for air being sucked into the VS by using smoke. I've used a smoke device for air leaks in the past and it might work in this situation. Something like a punk that smells because at the return in the pool you'd also be able to smell the smoke and know you have a leak in the pump or above ground plumbing.
jongig said:
That's a good idea. I'll see what I can come up with.
Just wondering what size plumbing you ahve hooked to your pump? Is it 2" or larger all the way from the pool?
Plumbing from the pool is 2 inch poly and 2 inch PVC for everything on the pad including solar and from the pad back to the pool is 1.5 inch poly. My distance from/to the pool in pipe is quite long at about 40 feet of pipe. My pump runs at 1,200 RPM in the day time which is 200 RPM over the minimum flow to keep the SWG turned on. If the solar turns on it ramps up to 1,800 RPM and 20 GPM. I don't know the GPM at 1,200 because my flow meter starts reading at 20 GPM. The pressure at the filter at 1,200 is about 3 PSI. At 1,800 RPM the pressure is about 8.
If you're thinking you have a vacuum issue I would guess you could measure the vacuum in the pump by connecting a vacuum gauge to the strainer's water release.
If you're thinking you have a vacuum issue I would guess you could measure the vacuum in the pump by connecting a vacuum gauge to the strainer's water release.
- May 3, 2007
- 16,980
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
First, you will not "see" cavitation in a residential pool pump. If cavitation were to occur, it would be in the impeller near the inlet and any vapor bubbles that are formed would travel outwards from the impeller inlet and collapse within the impeller so you will never see cavitation bubbles in the pump basket. Also, you will hear cavitation and it is a very distinct sound like pumping gravel.
Second, there is no fundamental limit to flow rate in pipes. If you keep increasing the size of the pump, the flow rate will continue to go up with any size plumbing. What limits the flow rate is the pump's ability at the specific head loss of the plumbing.
Third, there are only two reasons you will see air in the pump basket, one is an air leak and two is out-gassing. But out-gassing really only forms champagne size bubbles on the pump basket that may accumulate but usually only on low speed. However, it sounds like you are getting air at higher speeds so that would probably be an air leak.
Have you tried the shaving cream method? Put shaving cream around all suction side joints and see where it is sucked in.
Second, there is no fundamental limit to flow rate in pipes. If you keep increasing the size of the pump, the flow rate will continue to go up with any size plumbing. What limits the flow rate is the pump's ability at the specific head loss of the plumbing.
Third, there are only two reasons you will see air in the pump basket, one is an air leak and two is out-gassing. But out-gassing really only forms champagne size bubbles on the pump basket that may accumulate but usually only on low speed. However, it sounds like you are getting air at higher speeds so that would probably be an air leak.
Have you tried the shaving cream method? Put shaving cream around all suction side joints and see where it is sucked in.
New to the forum and pools so please be kind if I am off base here:
My installer told me that to cure the bubbles in my Intelliflo pump (siilar to your issue) I should bleed my valve at the top of my filter until solid water comes out. This works and once the bubbles are gone they stay gone unless I open the pump basket or such.
Regards,
My installer told me that to cure the bubbles in my Intelliflo pump (siilar to your issue) I should bleed my valve at the top of my filter until solid water comes out. This works and once the bubbles are gone they stay gone unless I open the pump basket or such.
Regards,
Glock30, this topic is discussing a situation where bubbles appear in the basket even when the air has been let out of the filter. This is actually a fairly common occurrence on the IntelliFlo pump when run at low speeds, though it seems likely that something beyond the common issue is happening in this specific case.
I have the same issue with an Intelliflo XF i just installed on 1.5" plumbing. Running at ~1500 RPM - very smooth but persistent 1" bubble under the lid. Tried everything to detect a leak on suction side but nothing can be found. Everything runs smoothly otherwise. Very little if any air at the cartridge filter after 8 hours of continuous operation.
Do you only have a pool and spa line, or does the pool line split into a vacuum and skimmer line?
tommytuna said:
I have a bubble in mine at the top that never goes away and size wise it's about the circumference of a quarter and I never loose prime.
I had thought more about this thread last year about a similar incident in a water well. Water pumped from a 800 feet deep well was clear but as soon as it was no longer under pressure it had the appearance of fogging up. Upon close investigation you could see small bubbles. Turned out to be gas being liberated from the water that had stayed in liquid under pressure. Since you’re referring to water and increasing the vacuum you are also changing the atmospheric pressure the water is under. I really doubt this is the cause but it’s at least maybe a thought experiment.
If you want to move past the thought experiment get a canning jar and modify the lid so as to attach a vacuum pump. Attach the vacuum pump and look for bubbles forming in the fluid under vacuum. Being both a SCUBA diver and Licensed Water Operator I can see it as possible, just not probable.
Well I think I have a defective XF. The seal between motor and wet end is leaking with a slow drip. Not sure if this has anything to do with air in basket but it can't be good. Dealer is going to swap in a brand new pump. Glad I bought from a local dealer.
So the local Pentair dealer graciously swapped in a new pump. No more leak at the motor. Still varying degrees of air in the pump basket (1-2"). Dealer called Pentair engineers and they said this is normal - especially with smaller diameter plumbing. I still bleed off a bit of air in the cartridge filter each day.
My last question is - would the cartridge filter trap air from a suction side leak? or would it pass it through into the return jets? Reason I ask is that my return jets don't have single visible bubble coming out but i'm wondering if that is b/c the cartridge filter would be trapping the air leak?
My last question is - would the cartridge filter trap air from a suction side leak? or would it pass it through into the return jets? Reason I ask is that my return jets don't have single visible bubble coming out but i'm wondering if that is b/c the cartridge filter would be trapping the air leak?
It could be one or the other or both. I can't explain exactly why ( I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the volume of air).
In a PERFECT system, there is never any air. Interestingly, my system is PERFECT on some days and then sucks in some air on other days.....I have given up trying to perfect it and am satisfied that it is tight enough not to drop prime.
I think i'm over thinking this 
i'm going to let this pump run for a few days straight before touching the filter bleed valve and see how much air builds up. If it is only a short burst i'm going to stop worrying about suction side leak. Pump hasn't lost prime yet and is working like a champ at 1200 RPM consuming 150 watts. A far cry from my old SuperFlo burning 1700 watts!!
i'm going to let this pump run for a few days straight before touching the filter bleed valve and see how much air builds up. If it is only a short burst i'm going to stop worrying about suction side leak. Pump hasn't lost prime yet and is working like a champ at 1200 RPM consuming 150 watts. A far cry from my old SuperFlo burning 1700 watts!!Just installed my Intelliflo with SVRS. I am having the same issue with bubbles in the basket and low water after a few hours. I am also having an issue with low force at the jets even when at 3450 rpms. My old 3/4 superpump has twice the force at the jets that this 3hp Intelliflo has.
Here is my setup:
Hayward 400H Gas Millivolt heater
Hayward 90 sq/ft cartridge filter
2" plumbing from both skimmers
1.5" plumbing from main drain
2" into pump
2" out of pump for 1 foot then switching to 1 foot of 1.5" before entering filter.
1.5" out of filter into heater
2" out of heater back into three return jets.
Is it possible that my pool installer installed my pump without both 120V legs and it's running at 120V? He used my four prong twist lock plug from my superpump.
Thanks!
Here is my setup:
Hayward 400H Gas Millivolt heater
Hayward 90 sq/ft cartridge filter
2" plumbing from both skimmers
1.5" plumbing from main drain
2" into pump
2" out of pump for 1 foot then switching to 1 foot of 1.5" before entering filter.
1.5" out of filter into heater
2" out of heater back into three return jets.
Is it possible that my pool installer installed my pump without both 120V legs and it's running at 120V? He used my four prong twist lock plug from my superpump.
Thanks!
Thanks to all who posted to this thread.
I plumbed in an intelliflo a few days ago. I was shocked at the amount of air in the basket, and after fiddling with unions and 90s and O rings, etc, I was pretty ticked off. At high speeds the basket had about an inch of air in the top, it looked like a pot of water on the kitchen stove at a fine rolling boil, waiting for the pasta to be added. At low speeds, the pot would drain down to the top of the pump intake level, with 4 inches of air in the basket.
Did soap suds. Nothing.
Did shaving cream. Nothing.
Then asked me wife for a small mirror and with mirror in hand I repeated the shaving cream. It took about 50 seconds for a pinhole to form in about a 3/8" deep ring of shaving cream on a 3-way valve right before the pump. And of course, the pinhole was on the bottom. Even laying on the ground with my ear pressed to earth I couldn't see it. Only with the mirror.
Okay, so I have this "micro pinhole", but surely there has to be another leak somewhere. After all the amount of air getting into the basket certainly seemed significant. I looked, I unthreaded, inspected, and rethreraded the pump unions, etc, etc. Nothing.
I was leaving town the next morning. I had just opened the pool and needed to shock the **** out of it, and I wanted the pump to be running for the couple of days I was going to be gone. For grins I took an old tube of caulk and placed a thin smear of caulk around the union with the pinhole. The air in the pump basket disappeared. Ridiculous. Ran several PRM changes with the pump. No air bubbles. Unreal. That one pinhole, and I mean a very tiny pinhole, was actually responsible for all that air.
the caulk slowly got sicked in I added more and more, then shut the pump down for an hour. The pump basket stayed full. No gurgling. Then fired the pump up. It stayed primed, Ran through an RPM run. No bubbles at any RPM.
As much as I'd like to leave my caulk "repair" as is and simply pretend that all is well, I can't. I'm going to cut out the valve and replace it. I'll get to that next week after I source a new 3-way valve and pick up the needed pvc fittings.
Anyhow, I'm posting to to say "Thanks." I appreciate the info you all provide and the knowledge that you all share.
FWIW, when the installers plumbed my equipment pad way back in the yonder days, they left little to no "free pipe" between fittings and valves. The fittings and valves are literally adjacent to one another in several areas. So to replumb one section, I'd have had to of replumbed pretty much the whole shebang. I used a 2" Pipe Hog to try to minimize the amount of work I had to cut and replace. The pipe hog worked fine on the regular PVC fittings, but it chattered some when drilling out the 3-way valve body. It's that chattering that probably left a score line that resulted in the formation of the pinhole leak.
I plumbed in an intelliflo a few days ago. I was shocked at the amount of air in the basket, and after fiddling with unions and 90s and O rings, etc, I was pretty ticked off. At high speeds the basket had about an inch of air in the top, it looked like a pot of water on the kitchen stove at a fine rolling boil, waiting for the pasta to be added. At low speeds, the pot would drain down to the top of the pump intake level, with 4 inches of air in the basket.
Did soap suds. Nothing.
Did shaving cream. Nothing.
Then asked me wife for a small mirror and with mirror in hand I repeated the shaving cream. It took about 50 seconds for a pinhole to form in about a 3/8" deep ring of shaving cream on a 3-way valve right before the pump. And of course, the pinhole was on the bottom. Even laying on the ground with my ear pressed to earth I couldn't see it. Only with the mirror.
Okay, so I have this "micro pinhole", but surely there has to be another leak somewhere. After all the amount of air getting into the basket certainly seemed significant. I looked, I unthreaded, inspected, and rethreraded the pump unions, etc, etc. Nothing.
I was leaving town the next morning. I had just opened the pool and needed to shock the **** out of it, and I wanted the pump to be running for the couple of days I was going to be gone. For grins I took an old tube of caulk and placed a thin smear of caulk around the union with the pinhole. The air in the pump basket disappeared. Ridiculous. Ran several PRM changes with the pump. No air bubbles. Unreal. That one pinhole, and I mean a very tiny pinhole, was actually responsible for all that air.
the caulk slowly got sicked in I added more and more, then shut the pump down for an hour. The pump basket stayed full. No gurgling. Then fired the pump up. It stayed primed, Ran through an RPM run. No bubbles at any RPM.
As much as I'd like to leave my caulk "repair" as is and simply pretend that all is well, I can't. I'm going to cut out the valve and replace it. I'll get to that next week after I source a new 3-way valve and pick up the needed pvc fittings.
Anyhow, I'm posting to to say "Thanks." I appreciate the info you all provide and the knowledge that you all share.
FWIW, when the installers plumbed my equipment pad way back in the yonder days, they left little to no "free pipe" between fittings and valves. The fittings and valves are literally adjacent to one another in several areas. So to replumb one section, I'd have had to of replumbed pretty much the whole shebang. I used a 2" Pipe Hog to try to minimize the amount of work I had to cut and replace. The pipe hog worked fine on the regular PVC fittings, but it chattered some when drilling out the 3-way valve body. It's that chattering that probably left a score line that resulted in the formation of the pinhole leak.
