Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36

Thread: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ahwatukee Foothills, Phoenix Arizona
    Posts
    14

    New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Hello all, first post.

    First this Forum is FANTASTIC. I have been reading through lots and lots of posts trying to learn as much as I can.

    Background: My wife and I bought a home in Phoenix in October with a "play pool". Its about 12k gallons, averaging about 4.5ft deep, 5 feet at the center. We are both first time pool owners and neither of us grew up around pools. So here are my questions/problems.

    Specs: I have a Hayward 1.5hp Max Flo II pump and a Unicell C8417 (175 sf) cartridge filter (this is the filter that was installed when we moved in). I have a pop up system with two centralized drains and there is no vacuum installed.

    1. Is this pump/filter combo adequate for the size of the pool that I have? I am wondering because I run the system every night from 9pm until 5am and the dirt at the bottom of the pool isn't going anywhere. In addition I have noticed that if I turn on the skimmer, the pop ups don't want to come up and do their job (lack of pressure perhaps?)

    2. The suggested flow rate on the cartridge housing is 45 gpm when using the Hayward OEM CX1750RE (doing some browsing it looks like the Unicell is roughly equivalent). Unfortunately the gauge on the housing measures PSI (and runs between 25-30) not GPM. How am I supposed to know if I have adequate flow rate? Should I buy a new replacement cartridge or is it undersized and I need to upgrade? If I need to upgrade ....

    3. While discussing these things at the local pool store, the owner suggested I have him install a new 1hp pump and 36" sand filter for a mere $1600. When I asked why I should buy a less powerful pump than I already own, he said I have a low head pump and I need a high head pump. Does that make sense?

    4. In addition he said that pop ups are not very efficient and that I should install a vacuum system to run while my filter is on for another $400. So for a mere 2k he would fix me up !! Is he giving good advice or just desperate to sell me stuff in order to garner work for himself during tough times?

    5. Would I be wasting my money/time by buying a manual vacuum and a new cartridge filter and seeing how far that gets me?

    Thank you in advance for your time and consideration in these matters. I hate putting stuff off but 2k is a fair amount of cash to throw at the problem. That's fine if its what it actually needs (ie the previous homeowner got cheap and undersized his system) but if its overkill and I can do something just as good at a lower cost I would like to do that.

    Once again, this forum rocks and I look forward to learning an incredible amount from all of the wonderful posts.
    In Ground Plaster 12k Gal pool / Hayward Max Flo II 1.5 hp pump / Hayward Star Clear Plus C1750 Cartridge filter

  2. Back To Top    #2

    In the Industry
    duraleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Sebring, Florida
    Posts
    28,409

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Hi, John,

    Welcome to the forum!

    I would not be in a hurry to buy anything for a while. Take your time and learn the charcteristics of your pool and your equipment. The answers about equipment will become more apparent as you get more familiar.

    I would suggest you buy a manual vacuum, tho. That is pretty much standard equipment for any pool and will not have to be used much but will be very convenient when you need it. Probably less than $75 for a nice vac head and hose sections. It'll also let you easily get the dirt from the floor while your trying to solve that problem.

    I'll let others chime in on the pump/filter combo but you do have kind of a mismatch. The pump appears a little too big or the filter too small whichever way you want to look at it. A 36" filter is huge.....do you think he might have suggested 30" or was he pretty clear?
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Texas
    Posts
    1,358

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Just to be quick here. The psi on the filter running 25 -30 seems awfully high. Might want to start off by cleaning the cartridge. I don't have cartridge but my DE filter is maxing out at psi of 30.

    You guys/gals with cart. filters, what do you normally run with a clean cartridge filter?

    gg=alice
    1981, 25K, IG, Blue Plaster 1996, somewhat oval, widens a bit at shallow end, 1.5" pipes, 2" at Pad, 1 separate main drain, 1 skimmer, 4 returns + dedicated cleaner return, 10 ft deep end with very fast decline from shallow, Pentair Quad 80 DE, Pentair Intelliflo VF, 3/4 HP Booster Pump (equipment pad about 8 ft below top of pool), Challanger 3/4 Trash/Emergency Pump 120v, Polaris 280 (pressure), iRobot Verro cleaner (robotic), Aquabot Turbo (robotic), Jacuzzi Tracker 4X (vacuum) Pool Blaster (Buster), Two (2) PoolSkims, Solar Breeze (solar powered top skimmer) (beta to ver. 2, release date 2010), ColorSplash LED replacement bulb. Aries 550 gal separate spa, 2002 (our 3rd and BEST spa) , BBB-Bromine

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Central NJ
    Posts
    3,192

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    The pump you have is meant for large above ground pools. The pool store guy is right about that. But a 3/4 HP Hayward Super Pump or Pentair Whisper Flow is all the pump you need if you only have a couple pop ups. If you have 8 or 10 that come up in pair, a 1 HP version of either brand would serve you well too.

    How many pop ups is relevant. Not all pop ups are designed for cleaning. Some are just for circulation. If you only have a couple, it's a circulation improver.

    If opening the skimmer causes the pop ups to fall, I'll bet you're sucking air. Check the flapper in the skimmer for free motion and your water level. Let us know what you find.

    A 36" sand filter is WAY over sized. Your 175 sq.ft. filter is fine. Unicel is the brand of the cartridge element only. If the tank is brown with a black, cross shape you screw and unscrew at the top, it's a Hayward Star Clear filter.

    Running at night is generally discouraged except when trying to cool a pool with a solar panel system. The sun, next to water, is a pools biggest enemy. It adds energy to the water, speeding chemical and biological reactions. Running during the day is much better and safer since chlorine is generally being added as the pump is running.

    Hope this helps.


    Happy Hollidays

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  5. Back To Top    #5
    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    7,570

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Start off by cleaning the cartridge. If you don't have instructions you should be able to google the filter and find instructions on-line. Once the cartridge is clean your psi should drop and improve the circulation in the pool. If the popups are for cleaning the pool, you should have much better performance after the cartridge is cleaned. If the cartridge appears damaged (broken bands, tears or holes) it will need to be replaced. Also, conduct a thorough search of your property and make sure there is not already a manual vacuum laying around somewhere before you run out a buy one. Again, if you are not sure what you are looking for, google is your friend!
    TFP Moderator
    Helpful links: TF Test Kits,TFP Pool School, PoolMath
    Vogue 21' round AG, Pentair 1 hp 2 speed pump, 36 sq ft DE filter, Hayward S180T 150# sand filter, Houston, Texas
    Love TFP? Become a
    TFP Supporter!

  6. Back To Top    #6

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ahwatukee Foothills, Phoenix Arizona
    Posts
    14

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    The pump you have is meant for large above ground pools. The pool store guy is right about that. But a 3/4 HP Hayward Super Pump or Pentair Whisper Flow is all the pump you need if you only have a couple pop ups. If you have 8 or 10 that come up in pair, a 1 HP version of either brand would serve you well too.
    Given the pump isn't the "right" one, will the pump I have work for my pool, or do I indeed need to go with a different pump (like the 1hp Hayward you mentioned)?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    How many pop ups is relevant. Not all pop ups are designed for cleaning. Some are just for circulation. If you only have a couple, it's a circulation improver.
    I have six pop ups on the floor of the pool and five additional ones on the steps.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    If opening the skimmer causes the pop ups to fall, I'll bet you're sucking air. Check the flapper in the skimmer for free motion and your water level. Let us know what you find.
    HOORAY!! I didn't know what a pool skimmer was, but after checking google (although you would be surprised how limited the actual pictures are) it would appear I don't even have one. So I will go out and purchase a flapper this weekend.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    A 36" sand filter is WAY over sized. Your 175 sq.ft. filter is fine. Unicel is the brand of the cartridge element only. If the tank is brown with a black, cross shape you screw and unscrew at the top, it's a Hayward Star Clear filter.
    I do indeed have a Hayward Star Clear Plus 1750 Filter, but I figured I could put different sizes of filters in there and so that's why I posted what cell is sitting in their now. There are three recommended filters on the cartridge housing, the 175 sf is the largest of the three. Best to go with that I assume?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Running at night is generally discouraged except when trying to cool a pool with a solar panel system. The sun, next to water, is a pools biggest enemy.
    I am not sure I understand this completely. I read on these forums that the sun breaks down the chlorine in a pool, so why would running during the day be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    It adds energy to the water, speeding chemical and biological reactions. Running during the day is much better and safer since chlorine is generally being added as the pump is running.
    I have an inline chlorinator (installed after the fact, tall plastic tube made for 3" chlorine tablets) which are supposed to be adding chlorine through the pop-ups while the pumps are running.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Hope this helps.

    Happy Holidays

    Scott
    So far you have given me at least one problem that two separate "pool guys" failed to find, one of which I paid to check out my pool for me and tell me if there were any problems. I now see that I might be better off using the combined knowledge of this forum and learning on my own.


    Thank you immensely,

    John

    PS. The pool company (not that I would use them again at this point) recommended that I drain and chlor-wash my pool in Feb., given the unknown history of the pool (although the chemical levels are fine according to the pool store) is this a wise move or a waste of water, time, and money?
    In Ground Plaster 12k Gal pool / Hayward Max Flo II 1.5 hp pump / Hayward Star Clear Plus C1750 Cartridge filter

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ahwatukee Foothills, Phoenix Arizona
    Posts
    14

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    Hi, John,

    Welcome to the forum!

    I would not be in a hurry to buy anything for a while. Take your time and learn the charcteristics of your pool and your equipment. The answers about equipment will become more apparent as you get more familiar.
    Thank you!! Indeed I have a lot to learn and I am sure as the months pass I will get a feel for my pool and its needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    I would suggest you buy a manual vacuum, tho. That is pretty much standard equipment for any pool and will not have to be used much but will be very convenient when you need it. Probably less than $75 for a nice vac head and hose sections. It'll also let you easily get the dirt from the floor while your trying to solve that problem.
    Is there a brand/type you recommend. I have heard that the Haywards are terrible and that I should go with a Barracuda. What do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    I'll let others chime in on the pump/filter combo but you do have kind of a mismatch. The pump appears a little too big or the filter too small whichever way you want to look at it. A 36" filter is huge.....do you think he might have suggested 30" or was he pretty clear?
    Yes, he was very clear. He said my options were a 3/4 hp pump with a 24" sand filter or a 1hp pump with a 36" filter.

    In regards to that, I read on these forums that bigger is better when it comes to filters. So wouldn't it be better to go with the 36" filter if I wind up replacing the system?
    In Ground Plaster 12k Gal pool / Hayward Max Flo II 1.5 hp pump / Hayward Star Clear Plus C1750 Cartridge filter

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Central NJ
    Posts
    3,192

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    1) What are the length and width of the pool.
    2) It would be helpful in making equipment recommendations if you could post a picture of your equipment pad. Please include plumbing. It may take more than one picture. A picture of the pool will help too.

    Not all skimmer mouths have flappers(weirs). Some integrate the weir in the skimmer's basket.

    It sounds like you may have a floor cleaning system. Let try to identify it. Somewhere is a roughly 12" black dome with a bunch of pipes on the bottom. If there is on on top, it's an A&A system, If all the pipes are on the bottom, it's a Paramount.

    Do the pop ups visibly cycle in sets, usually 2 or 3 at a time? If not, then the mechanism that distributes the water to the floor jets may be broken and or missing or the wall returns may still be open, or both.

    WRT why to run in the day vs. night: Free chlorine, is in a gaseous state at normal temps, like oxygen, nitrogen, etc... It is heavier than air but lighter than water. When injected into a pool's water, it will stick around for a while until it eventually reaches the surface and gasses off or combines with something, like algae and kills it. UV rays from the sun and temperature increases will speed this process. Pool usage also speeds this process.

    Strange as this sounds, a pool's biggest enemies are water, the sun, and usage. Water is the universal solvent. There is no such thing as water proof, only water resistant. Sun provides energy. Usage stirs things up and brings new things in.

    By the middle of the day, running as you are, it is very likely that the free chlorine level in the pool has dropped to or near zero. Now your pool has no sanitizer and algae and pathogens will have an opportunity to grow. And, they will. They like the sun's rays too. Most usage is during daylight. Most people don't want the family and guests exposed to pathogens and algae is unsightly. This includes the In-Laws.

    Keep reading this site. It contains more useful information and people that believe in helping others.

    Happy Holidays;

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Cupertino, CA
    Posts
    1,966

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Regarding when to run the pump: You will get different stories from different people, because there are a number of considerations and people will balance these in different ways.

    During the day, the sun has a couple of effects on the pool. The UV rays will cause you to lose some FC; if you have an appropriate CYA level, this effect will be reasonably small. However the sun is also encouraging algae and other organics to grow. Chlorine will kill these off but if the water isn't circulating the FC could be "used up" in some spots, and stop killing off the organics. If the water is circulating then you won't see this problem. This is the main reason to run the pump in the daytime.

    Do you have time-of-use metering? If your electric rates are cheaper at night, you can mostly run the pump at night. People who do this usually also run the pump briefly (like 2 hrs) during the day, typically in the early afternoon, to limit the effects mentioned above.

    Do you have a cover? If so then the sunlight effects are less, and it is less important to run the pump in the daytime. (If you don't have a cover, you might consider getting one. In a sunny climate like Phoenix, it will help reduce water loss through evaporation and reduce FC loss due to sunlight.)

    FYI, I run my pump from midday to early evening in the summer, as the pool does not get direct sun in the morning. Also I have a bubble-wrap cover, and there was a distinct improvement in FC loss after I got it.
    --paulr
    BBB "Intermediate Swimmer"
    IG plaster pool 18.5K gal, Hayward Pro-Grid DE filter, 3/4 HP Hydramax II; Polaris 380, 3/4 HP booster
    AG spa 325 gal, probably Sundance of some kind
    Water testing instructions on one page

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ahwatukee Foothills, Phoenix Arizona
    Posts
    14

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    1) What are the length and width of the pool.
    2) It would be helpful in making equipment recommendations if you could post a picture of your equipment pad. Please include plumbing. It may take more than one picture. A picture of the pool will help too.
    Pictures - http://picasaweb.google.com/carlyrobey/ ... directlink

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Not all skimmer mouths have flappers(weirs). Some integrate the weir in the skimmer's basket.
    As noted in the pictures, there doesn't appear to be any kind of flapper in either location.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    It sounds like you may have a floor cleaning system. Let try to identify it. Somewhere is a roughly 12" black dome with a bunch of pipes on the bottom. If there is on on top, it's an A&A system, If all the pipes are on the bottom, it's a Paramount.
    So it looks like I have a paramount?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Do the pop ups visibly cycle in sets, usually 2 or 3 at a time? If not, then the mechanism that distributes the water to the floor jets may be broken and or missing or the wall returns may still be open, or both.
    Yes, when I turn the skimmer off and the pop ups work, they cycle in sets of 2 or 3, depending on floor or stairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    WRT why to run in the day vs. night: Free chlorine, is in a gaseous state at normal temps, like oxygen, nitrogen, etc... It is heavier than air but lighter than water. When injected into a pool's water, it will stick around for a while until it eventually reaches the surface and gasses off or combines with something, like algae and kills it. UV rays from the sun and temperature increases will speed this process. Pool usage also speeds this process.

    Strange as this sounds, a pool's biggest enemies are water, the sun, and usage. Water is the universal solvent. There is no such thing as water proof, only water resistant. Sun provides energy. Usage stirs things up and brings new things in.

    By the middle of the day, running as you are, it is very likely that the free chlorine level in the pool has dropped to or near zero. Now your pool has no sanitizer and algae and pathogens will have an opportunity to grow. And, they will. They like the sun's rays too. Most usage is during daylight. Most people don't want the family and guests exposed to pathogens and algae is unsightly. This includes the In-Laws.
    I have time of use metering, so electricity is considerably more expensive during the daytime. I guess I will have to make the sacrifice, such is the cost of having a pool =)

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Keep reading this site. It contains more useful information and people that believe in helping others.

    Happy Holidays;

    Scott
    Thank you!!
    In Ground Plaster 12k Gal pool / Hayward Max Flo II 1.5 hp pump / Hayward Star Clear Plus C1750 Cartridge filter

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ahwatukee Foothills, Phoenix Arizona
    Posts
    14

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulR
    Regarding when to run the pump: You will get different stories from different people, because there are a number of considerations and people will balance these in different ways.

    During the day, the sun has a couple of effects on the pool. The UV rays will cause you to lose some FC; if you have an appropriate CYA level, this effect will be reasonably small. However the sun is also encouraging algae and other organics to grow. Chlorine will kill these off but if the water isn't circulating the FC could be "used up" in some spots, and stop killing off the organics. If the water is circulating then you won't see this problem. This is the main reason to run the pump in the daytime.

    Do you have time-of-use metering? If your electric rates are cheaper at night, you can mostly run the pump at night. People who do this usually also run the pump briefly (like 2 hrs) during the day, typically in the early afternoon, to limit the effects mentioned above.
    As posted just above, I do indeed have TOU metering. Electricity is much cheaper overnight hence my logic for running at night. Right now my chlorine seems ok, but I can see how it would be much more affected during the summer. I guess I will have to come up with some kind of schedule for the summertime that doesn't absolutely kill me with electric bills.

    Is it safe to swim while running the pumps and chlorinating?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Do you have a cover? If so then the sunlight effects are less, and it is less important to run the pump in the daytime. (If you don't have a cover, you might consider getting one. In a sunny climate like Phoenix, it will help reduce water loss through evaporation and reduce FC loss due to sunlight.)
    I do not have a cover, this will be something I will consider getting.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    FYI, I run my pump from midday to early evening in the summer, as the pool does not get direct sun in the morning. Also I have a bubble-wrap cover, and there was a distinct improvement in FC loss after I got it.
    --paulr
    I have a north/south facing house, but the sun is on the backyard all day while the front gets very little sun. I have a dial time system so I can only set it for one run time. Summer time rates are uber expensive from 6am to 9pm, so I will have to come up with some kind of compromise schedule for running the pump.

    Thank you for the help and the suggestions!!
    In Ground Plaster 12k Gal pool / Hayward Max Flo II 1.5 hp pump / Hayward Star Clear Plus C1750 Cartridge filter

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Central NJ
    Posts
    3,192

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Thanks for the pix. Very helpful.

    First, I am going to correct myself in the a Max-Flo II is for in-ground use. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the umph needed to drive the floor system to the degree you need, even though it's a 1-1/2 HP unit.

    Given your time of use billing, it might make sense to look at a variable speed pump. During the day, they can be set to run on a lower speed that uses substantially less power for normal circulation. At night, it can be cranked up to give you the higher flow you need for a couple hours. Any of the big 3 brands can work and provide the added flow volume you need if there is a decent controller in place.

    Your current pump is using about 1500 watts. The variable speed pumps will use about 300, but need to run somewhat longer, during the day. It's still a very substantial savings in energy cost. The motors on these pumps, particularly the Pentair and Jandy, will last a LOT longer than the single speed motors found in todays regular pool pumps. At night, when you want high speed to run the floors, they have more than enough flow capabilities so they won't be turned on full blast and will still use less energy than the single speed.

    The combination I would suggest to one of my customers would be a Pentair Easy Touch controller paired with an Intelliflow VS. The Easy Touch can move a valve actuator to send return flow to the Paramount distribution system at night and to the wall returns in the day. It can also tell the pump to do the speed changes when needed.

    Your skimmer picture doesn't even have a basket in it. It appears to be a Pentair brand, so a basket and floating weir set inside would work for you as as would a flapper at the skimmer's mouth. Either is fine but not having the basket and weir is likely to be creating a vortex/whirlpool in the skimmer that is sucking air. Getting that corrected will also help remove anything on the pool surface that hasn't broken the surface tension of the water and sank. The weirs cause surface water to be drawn in as opposed to water a couple inches down. You want the skimmer to skim. Without the weir, it can't.

    I am not certain what the picture of the sump is there for. Possibly for overflow protection?

    Running during the day will not harm family and friends. It will protect them as freshly chlorinated water will be fed into the pool. Phoenix has strong sunshine for most of the year. Pools are used during the day. Stabilizer will be distributed from activity due to usage. A still body of water with CYA in it will see the CYA rise closer to the surface forming the blocking effect of the UV. Activity kills this effect. Run during the day, not just to filter the water but to add chlorine slowly and steadily.

    Read up on CYA. Too much in the water will reduce chlorine's ability to do it's job. That mean more will be needed. At some point, diluting the pool water and adding fresh water and or using unscented bleach may be an alternative and when have large groups over to use the pool, recommended to add a temporary boost of free chlorine. The 3" tabs that go in the feed also release CYA. It doesn't evaporate and builds up over time.

    If I missed anything, someone will certainly contribute to add to what I have said.

    Merry Christmas!

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  13. Back To Top    #13
    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    SWSuburban Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,963

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnPHX
    PS. The pool company (not that I would use them again at this point) recommended that I drain and chlor-wash my pool in Feb., given the unknown history of the pool (although the chemical levels are fine according to the pool store) is this a wise move or a waste of water, time, and money?
    Yes, completely.

    Hi John, I just want to say you'be been given great advice thus far so I'll just welcome you.

    Perhaps invest in a different timer so that you can run your pump on/off a couple times, at least once during the heat of the day. IF you do try I solar cover I highly recommend the dark blue kind, it cuts the uv loss DRASTICALLY and it doesn't do much to heat up the pool which may be an issue in the hot temp. If you leave it on during the hot days and off at night to help cool the temps during your hot season....see if that improves things.

    As Anna once said, or something to the effect, a happy pool is a pool is a used pool. I have great circulation in my TFP but even I get dirt/crud, etc. that collects on the bottom and brushing it or getting the stuff stirred up so the filter can catch it, usually does the trick or a few times a season I break out the manual vacume. That's rare though.

    Anyway, good luck with any potential equip upgrades - I think your filter is fine for your size pool, perhaps just change the timer and pump and pick up an inexpensive vac head/hose.

    Welcome
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Central NJ
    Posts
    3,192

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    The one thing I forgot to add was I suggest a manual vacuuming if that is how the pool currently is.

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  15. Back To Top    #15

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ahwatukee Foothills, Phoenix Arizona
    Posts
    14

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Thanks for the pix. Very helpful.
    I am glad they helped. You can see from the pictures how dirty the pool is and it just isn't getting any cleaner with 8 hours per night of running. Also I added a picture of my current timer system, forgot that the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    First, I am going to correct myself in the a Max-Flo II is for in-ground use. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the umph needed to drive the floor system to the degree you need, even though it's a 1-1/2 HP unit.

    Given your time of use billing, it might make sense to look at a variable speed pump. During the day, they can be set to run on a lower speed that uses substantially less power for normal circulation. At night, it can be cranked up to give you the higher flow you need for a couple hours. Any of the big 3 brands can work and provide the added flow volume you need if there is a decent controller in place.

    Your current pump is using about 1500 watts. The variable speed pumps will use about 300, but need to run somewhat longer, during the day. It's still a very substantial savings in energy cost. The motors on these pumps, particularly the Pentair and Jandy, will last a LOT longer than the single speed motors found in today's regular pool pumps. At night, when you want high speed to run the floors, they have more than enough flow capabilities so they won't be turned on full blast and will still use less energy than the single speed.

    The combination I would suggest to one of my customers would be a Pentair Easy Touch controller paired with an Intelliflow VS. The Easy Touch can move a valve actuator to send return flow to the Paramount distribution system at night and to the wall returns in the day. It can also tell the pump to do the speed changes when needed.
    There are two Intelliflow VS's (SVRS, and the 3050), safe to assume that either would work fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Your skimmer picture doesn't even have a basket in it. It appears to be a Pentair brand, so a basket and floating weir set inside would work for you as as would a flapper at the skimmer's mouth. Either is fine but not having the basket and weir is likely to be creating a vortex/whirlpool in the skimmer that is sucking air. Getting that corrected will also help remove anything on the pool surface that hasn't broken the surface tension of the water and sank. The weirs cause surface water to be drawn in as opposed to water a couple inches down. You want the skimmer to skim. Without the weir, it can't.
    I have turned the unit on and watched the skimmer work. I have indeed witnessed that vortex action at the skimmer area. Of course not being familiar with a pool (and the same action being how a sink or bathtub drains) I didn't realize that wasn't normal. I think a new filter and a flapper are the first things that I will get. Is it overkill to put one up at the in-wall area and at the basket or is it usually one or the other but not both?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    I am not certain what the picture of the sump is there for. Possibly for overflow protection?/quote]

    I figured the more pictures the better. That's supposed to be my automatic refill area when the pool gets low, the float is supposed to trigger water to run and fill it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Running during the day will not harm family and friends. It will protect them as freshly chlorinated water will be fed into the pool. Phoenix has strong sunshine for most of the year. Pools are used during the day. Stabilizer will be distributed from activity due to usage. A still body of water with CYA in it will see the CYA rise closer to the surface forming the blocking effect of the UV. Activity kills this effect. Run during the day, not just to filter the water but to add chlorine slowly and steadily.
    This is good to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    Read up on CYA. Too much in the water will reduce chlorine's ability to do it's job. That mean more will be needed. At some point, diluting the pool water and adding fresh water and or using unscented bleach may be an alternative and when have large groups over to use the pool, recommended to add a temporary boost of free chlorine. The 3" tabs that go in the feed also release CYA. It doesn't evaporate and builds up over time.
    And the pool store just had me add CYA last week, because they said my acid was low. I have now bought a test kit myself, but after some more perusing of these forums I am going to take it back and get a better one with all of the indicators.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoolGuyNJ
    If I missed anything, someone will certainly contribute to add to what I have said.

    Merry Christmas!

    Scott
    You have been tremendously helpful, thanks a TON!!

    Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!
    In Ground Plaster 12k Gal pool / Hayward Max Flo II 1.5 hp pump / Hayward Star Clear Plus C1750 Cartridge filter

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ahwatukee Foothills, Phoenix Arizona
    Posts
    14

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by frustratedpoolmom
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnPHX
    PS. The pool company (not that I would use them again at this point) recommended that I drain and chlor-wash my pool in Feb., given the unknown history of the pool (although the chemical levels are fine according to the pool store) is this a wise move or a waste of water, time, and money?
    Yes, completely.

    Hi John, I just want to say you'be been given great advice thus far so I'll just welcome you.

    Perhaps invest in a different timer so that you can run your pump on/off a couple times, at least once during the heat of the day. IF you do try I solar cover I highly recommend the dark blue kind, it cuts the uv loss DRASTICALLY and it doesn't do much to heat up the pool which may be an issue in the hot temp. If you leave it on during the hot days and off at night to help cool the temps during your hot season....see if that improves things.

    As Anna once said, or something to the effect, a happy pool is a pool is a used pool. I have great circulation in my TFP but even I get dirt/crud, etc. that collects on the bottom and brushing it or getting the stuff stirred up so the filter can catch it, usually does the trick or a few times a season I break out the manual vacume. That's rare though.

    Anyway, good luck with any potential equip upgrades - I think your filter is fine for your size pool, perhaps just change the timer and pump and pick up an inexpensive vac head/hose.

    Welcome
    Thank you very much for the help. This board is so great and I am glad I discovered it.

    This weekend I will be buying a new clean filter, manual vacuum, and flappers to start with. Then look into the timer/pump combo, although that might not happen until early next year.

    I am going to guess that if I could only get one at a time, I am better off getting the new pump first and the timer second right?
    In Ground Plaster 12k Gal pool / Hayward Max Flo II 1.5 hp pump / Hayward Star Clear Plus C1750 Cartridge filter

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    South Central NJ
    Posts
    3,192

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    While the added safety of an SVRS is almost always welcome, using them with a Paramount has caused issues in the past. When changing zones, I have seen the pump think the flow is stopped and trip it's SVRS function. I think it was because the wrong model transmission was in the distribution unit was paired with the pump. This situation usually occurs when the pump is used as a replacement.

    Paramount has a drop in replacement that allows flow to be bypassed when changing zones, but I am not certain that it is enough to keep the SVRS function from tripping.

    I haven't seen this happen with the 3050. While it only has four preset speeds, your pool doesn't need any more. It's also the least expensive of the Pentair Intelliflows.

    Pair it with the EasyTouch control. It would go where your existing timer/breaker panel is. The EasyTouch is equipped with a 125 amp breaker bus in the box. Chances are pretty good the existing breakers you have will fit. I was thinking of suggesting a SunTouch system, but it doesn't have the built in sub-panel so it would not be as simple a retrofit.

    WRT to the skimmer, only one weir is desired.

    The "Chlor-Wash" is a waste.

    Keep a clean trash can handy. Cartridges need to be soaked overnight in TSP or cartridge clean periodically to remove skin oils and lotions that don't hose off. These oils and lotions clog it's pores just as dirt does. They also lengthen a cartridge's life.

    Even with the proposed changes, do not expect the floor system to be vacuum free. There will be dead zones. As a new pool owner, I expect you will be human and make mistakes here and there that can cause an algae bloom. Also remember that nature sometimes does it to the best cared for pools. This will require manual vacuuming and brushing.

    Don't leave the hose, vac head, skimming and leaf nets, and brushes out in the sun. It will shorten their life. The sun is unforgiving and powerful, especially in your area.

    Merry Christmas!

    Scott
    Owner of - PoolGuyNJ LLC
    Expert Pool and Spa Repairs, Renovations, and Augmentation. Helping people decide what is the right gear for meeting their needs. Expectations Set, Expectations Met, No Surprises.

  18. Back To Top    #18
    tsunami's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Oceanside, CA
    Posts
    138

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    Welcome, John!

    At 26 psi, I bet that your filter hasn't been cleaned in a while. The first thing I'd do is give it a good cleaning. If the size is OK, why spend the money on a new one? I'd put the money towards the weir door, a vacuum, and a brush.

    This site has a lot of good information on how to test and maintain the chemicals in your pool. Like duraleigh said, once you get that figured out, the equipment you'll need will become more apparent.
    40 X 26 Free Form Pool with attached 9 X 7 Spa raised 18" with 8 Jets and Spillover, and an Art Rock Waterfall/Grotto with accent rocks, 26,000 gallons
    Intelliflo VF-3050 for Pool, VS-3050 for Spa Jets, VS-3050 for Waterfall/Grotto, Quad DE 80, 400K BTU Mastertemp, Intellitouch i7+3 w/ iS10 10 Function Spa-Side Remote, Intellichlor IC40 Salt Chlorinator, Telephone Remote, 2 Intellibrites for Pool/ 1 for Spa, Solar Panels on 2 story Roof w/ 75% coverage
    Pebble Tec Tropical Breeze Tsunami's Pool Build

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Ahwatukee Foothills, Phoenix Arizona
    Posts
    14

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    This has got to be the most responsive and generous forum I have ever seen. You guys have all been amazing!!!

    I have learned more in the last few days from you than the information I received from the pool company that was supposed to take care of all of this.

    Today I bought a basket and flapper for the skimmer and OMG, the difference is night and day!!! Compared to what it does now, the skimmer simply wasn't working at all before.

    Also I pulled out the cartridge, it was essentially brown and there were leaves, twigs, sticks, bugs, and you name it in there. I spent about an hour hosing it off and there are still areas where it doesn't seem to want to come clean. I have ordered a replacement for about $100 and figure its a cheap way to start fresh. It should be here Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning. I am going to buy a small garbage can just for cleaning the filter as well.

    I also bought vacuum head and hose from Home Depot and it did WONDERS for the floor. I wound up with a basket half full of rocks and leaves in the pump but I got a tremendous amount of dirt up. Not all of it is up, but I will run the pop ups tonight (without the skimmer on) and see how it looks in the morning with the clean(er) filter. I will probably vacuum it again tomorrow morning to pick up what was left behind. Until I get the new pump/timer, it looks like I will just have to alternate the pop ups and the skimmer day to day.

    BTW dumb question: short of standing on top of the drains in the middle of the pool, how can I tell if they are working properly? I suppose that if the return (skimmer) is turned off and water is flowing, then they must be working right? Do they work all the time or only when I have the pop ups on?

    One thing that I noticed with the Pentair Intelliflow VS 3050 is that its 3hp. The pool store owner said that with 3hp I will blow out my filter, is this correct? If so I guess I need a less powerful pump.

    Finally, now that I am getting this dirt problem sorted out, how important are the chemical levels during the wintertime when no one is swimming in the pool? Is it important to still try to keep the pool balanced?

    Once again you guys have all been amazingly awesome! I only hope that over time, I too will one day be posting helpful tips for new pool owners.

    I also bought a test kit today (Aquacheck dipstick type), but it only tests for 4 things.

    Anyways the chemistry seems WAY off.

    As best I can tell (its just dip, wait 15s then compare colors) the following are my levels:

    PH - 8.4, FC - 10, TA - 200, CYA - 200 (the ambient temp outside when I tested was 54 f although I don't know what the water temp was)

    However these numbers don't seem to make sense. If the CYA is to high, then how can the PH also be too high?

    Punching these numbers into the pool calculator referenced elsewhere in these forums, the advice is both to add acid and to drain my pool. Obviously I don't need to do both.
    In Ground Plaster 12k Gal pool / Hayward Max Flo II 1.5 hp pump / Hayward Star Clear Plus C1750 Cartridge filter

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    7,570

    Re: New Pool Owner in Phoenix

    CYA is what shields your chlorine from UV rays. If there is too much (and 200 is way too much!) your chlorine is over protected and can't do it's job. (aka chlorine lock) CYA does not degrade under normal circumstances and the only way to neutralize excess CYA is to drain off water and add fresh to dilute the CYA to more manageable levels. CYA comes from powdered "shock" (trichlore or dichlore) 1" or 3" tablets (aka pucks) or can be purchased independently as "stabilizer". Any powdered or solid chlorine pool product sold in the USA except for cal-hypo contains CYA. You need to use these sparingly to prevent chlorine lock caused by over stabilization. Cal-hypo has its own issues. Too much can raise calcium levels too high and lead to scale if you are not careful. You also cannot use cal-hypo in a chlorinator that has had trichlore or dichlore in it due to risk of explosion. Most of us use liquid chlorine to avoid over stabilization.

    Now, CYA has acid in its name but it is not included in a pool's acid demand or TA reading. Don't think of it as acid, think of it as stabilizer. To meet your pool's acid demand you will use either dry acid or muriatic acid (liquid) in amounts indicated by the results of your testing.

    Next subject- Test kits. I hope the "guess strips" you bought are a temporary means of testing your water until you are able to obtain one of the fas-dpd test kits recommended on this site. The TFP kit is an excellent value, the kit from Leslie's must be ordered online 95% of the time (if they don't have the fas-dpd service kit in stock at the store don't let them sell you the other kits they sell, they are not adequate for your needs.) A fas-dpd test kit will give you the most accurate information about your pool water chemistry. Plug those results into the pool calculator, do what it says and you will be well on your way to maintaining a trouble free pool!

    If you use a pool store to test your water, don't buy anything! Whatever they recommend, say you think you have some at home, and you will see how it works. Then come here and give us the information. We will tell you if you need to do anything to your pool!

    Double check your pH. If it still reads over 7.8 you will need to lower it. Please re-read pool school and follow the instructions for lowering pH.
    TFP Moderator
    Helpful links: TF Test Kits,TFP Pool School, PoolMath
    Vogue 21' round AG, Pentair 1 hp 2 speed pump, 36 sq ft DE filter, Hayward S180T 150# sand filter, Houston, Texas
    Love TFP? Become a
    TFP Supporter!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •