Helping a friend close his pool, but there's no valve to main drains

[TroubleFreePat]

Friend of mine just bought a house with a pool. I told him I'd help him close it since I have the blower and do my own. His pool is probably 30-40 years old. Very basic - single speed pump, cartridge filter and that's it. There appear to be two main drains in the pool (Deep end and shallow end), two skimmers, and four returns. Two returns are under each skimmer, two returns are at the shallow end. The shallow returns also have very small (1/2" diameter?) holes above the water line directly above the returns. When we had the blower running, air was coming out of these. No idea what they're for? Overflow?

Anyway, he has one valve in all of this. The valve appears to close off the two returns under the skimmers. My problem is, I don't know how to put the mains under an air lock since I can't close them off. Since the skimmers appear to be connected to the mains, they never blow clear of water. Water in those lines stay at the pool water line. Additionally, I can't get the deep water main to blow bubbles. I assume I'm just losing too much air to the skimmers.

What am I missing?

 

[Catanzaro]

Please upload pictures of the equipment pad and the shallow returns above the water line. Air will travel according to the plumbing configuration. Water is being pulled out of the pull, towards the pump, out of the pump, through the filter, and back to the pool. You can send air backwards to the skimmers and main drains and you can send air forward to the returns, etc.

If the main drain is plumbed directly with the skimmers, you can use a "blow thru plug" with a scrader valve. This should trap air in the main drain. You will need to clear the skimmers first, plug them accordingly and then there is only one way air can travel, and that is towards the main drain. Once the MD bubbles for a minute or so, then the air has been trapped. No need to remove the plug either.

I told him I'd help him close it since I have the blower and do my own.

What blower do you have? How will you adapt it to the pump/pad, etc.?

 

[TroubleFreePat]

All I have is the attached for now, took that previously. Will try to get a picture of the returns and a few more of the pad if it helps.

What you can't see very well are the pipes coming up from the ground. Where you see that gate valve, there's another pipe behind it that gets Y'ed in to the PVC.

I have a Cyclone. We got a spare cover for his motor, drilled it for a 1/2" adapter and connect the blower to that.

 

[Catanzaro]

Here is what I would do:

1) Close off suction side with a black plug inside the pump housing. Use the blower to clear out the returns with the use of the modified cover and plug them off. On the last return, make sure someone is at the Cyclone to shut it off after you close the last return (not to build too much backpressure).

2) Cross your fingers! LOL

3) Now, remove the black plug on the suction side and place a plug on the return side inside the pump housing. Remove the cover and use the 1.5" hose as it is flexible enough to be placed in the plumbing inside the pump housing (may go a few inches at most), allow to build a little bit of pressure and probability is that the skimmers will go first. Close off the skimmers one at a time. After you close the skimmers, the main drains should start bubbling. Allow them to bubble for a minute or possibly longer, until you feel comfortable. If you are getting a whirlpool type of effect at the drains, then one minute is sufficient. Then as you back off the hose, quickly plug the suction side with the same winter plug you had before. You will need a second hand on this one.

The other option is to use a winter plug with the same method that has the Schrader valve (Blow Thru plug) and then go back with an air compressor. The deep end main drain will be fine, I would be more concerned about the shallow end drain. There should be trapped air in the system as well.

Winterize everything at the pump, filter, etc. Remove all drain plugs and pressure gauge.

 

[TroubleFreePat]

Cross your fingers - love it!

Problem is I can't clear the skimmers. I did all the returns yesterday no problem. But since the skimmers and mains are tied together. . . I could blow out the skimmers all day, they just keep pulling in from the mains. I need to dig in to the blow thru plug you mention to try and clear the skimmers then.

Also thinking it would make a lot of sense to cut the in and out sides on the PVC and put ball valves. At least then I can easily close off the main/skimmer line once cleared.

 

[Catanzaro]

I could blow out the skimmers all day, they just keep pulling in from the mains. I need to dig in to the blow thru plug you mention to try and clear the skimmers then.

Before you start cutting and adding shut off valves, does air travel towards the skimmer(s), remove water and blow air? If so, then the air is traveling to the path of least resistance. If you can clear one skimmer, plug it and move on to the next, plug it, and move on to the main drains as stated. You are on the same playing ground as me. We do not get the deep freezes like other parts of the country or Canada. Think about this logically. If all the 4 lines are tied in together with one run back to the pump (which appears like in the picture), air will travel to the path of least resistance and remove the water from there, once you plug air is still in the lines with the Cyclone running and moving on to the next, etc. Yes, there will be some residual water, but nothing to worry about.

This weekend, I closed a friends pool and there was 2 in the steps, 4 in the love seat, 3 returns, 1 Polaris line, and 7 in the spillover spa. A total of 17. They went off in all different directions. I had my friend with me and it was funny how we were all over the pool. I know people who leave everything open and work one return at a time, which includes the suction and returns (takes longer, but still works).

 

[TroubleFreePat]

Skimmers do blow air, but never clear the water. I think it's basically because the mains are still open (Can't close them off from the skimmers) and the water is being pulled back in to the skimmers from the mains.

Here's what I'm thinking/wondering now. If I plug both skimmers as they are and have all air directed to the mains, will that have a vacuum effect on the skimmers and drain them? THAT would work. Then if I put a valve between the main/skimmers and the pump, I can close that and everything would be locked. Only potential is I couldn't get the deep main to blow any air. . .

 

[Catanzaro]

Skimmers do blow air, but never clear the water. I think it's basically because the mains are still open (Can't close them off from the skimmers) and the water is being pulled back in to the skimmers from the mains.

Yes, then plug the skimmers and see what happens. You may even want to pour antifreeze in the skimmer lines and then see if the liquid comes out of the main drains as you are trying to clear them (not a lot is needed - maybe one gallon in each of the skimmers). If so, then you know where the liquid is going. If not, then you have covered the skimmers with some protection.

If I plug both skimmers as they are and have all air directed to the mains, will that have a vacuum effect on the skimmers and drain them? THAT would work.

This is extremely difficult to answer. Air traveling will or should not have a vacuum, unless the water from the skimmers has already dropped. Try closing one skimmer and blowing air into the other skimmer to see what happens. Also, try closing both skimmers and blowing air from the equipment pad and see what happens.

If everything is tied together, I would not worry too much as the drains are open in the pool. There is a lot of latent heat under ground, behind the liner, etc. Water in the pool only freezes a few inches (based off memory).