New house, new pool, new problems! Please help!

[PaulR]

It's best to stick with one thread as long as it's the same general topic, which makes it easier to scroll back and reread the history. Which I just did.

TA 115 is not low, it's actually on the high side. Not necessarily bad; but it's contributing to the increase in pH.

CH 400 is not the end of the world either. The curious thing is that as the temperature goes down, the risk of scaling also goes down! Calcium is weird that way. SO, I think you don't need to do a big drain/refill to lower CH before closing. You maybe want to drain a little more than you would normally, when you close, so the spring refill will help with the CH; but no worries before then.

I don't want to say anything specific about closing, because I've never done it (too warm where I am), just wanted to correct the info about TA and CH.
--paulr

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

I wouldn't listen to A or B.

Your TA is fine, and neither CH result is super alarming.

I would make sure your PH is 7.2-7.3ish before you close.

 

[wes8398]

Bah, Crud!!! Sorry, but you guys are going to think I'm an idiot. Before I got your replies I had already added 4 kg's of Sodium Bicarb beacuse both stores suggested the TA to be around 140ppm for winter closing (They also suggested pH to be 7.6 for closing). I didn't know that the Bicarb would bring my pH down, so now I'm afraid that I'm starting that stupid pH/TA yo-yo game. As of today, here are water test results from "store A" who does water analysis by dipping a test strip into my water sample and putting it into a computer-based analyser...

FC - 6.3 ppm
CC - 0.6 ppm
pH - 7.2 (advised to raise, so I bought some PH+ Crud and added about 700g today which, considering my really high TA, probabaly didn't do much to bring the pH up)
TA - 150 ppm (after 4 kg's of Bicarb last night)
CYA - 0 (likely from the partial drain/refill ... was at 40ppm before that)
CH - 340 ppm

This is a ma' and pa' store that is very reputable and I trust them to some degree, but even in my short time as a member at this forum, I trust you guys more. I just want to say that I've never really felt like this store has ever "pushed" products on me. I really believe that they've just totally bought in to what the dealer reps have sold them, and their suggestions reflect that.
I asked the fella why they recommended such a high TA (and higher pH) for closing (since I knew you guys would want to know what they said haha) and his answer was just that because the pool is going to be closed for 6 or 7 months, they feel a higher (~140ppm) TA is safer. That was basically the extent of his answer.

Anyway, for $20 I left the store with 2kg's of CYA (for the spring) and 2kg's of pH+ (I know I should have gotten some 20 Mule Team...) to bring the pH up. I'm assuming that with a TA so high, the 1/3rd of the pH+ bottle I used made very little difference ... will test tomorrow to be sure though.


So..... where am I going with this...? Basically - keeping in mind that I just found this lovely place and haven't yet ordered my TF100 and hence have to go back to the pool store to get water samples analyzed - what do you guys/girls suggest I do before closing the pool this weekend? I'm working nights until then (12 hour shifts) and don't have the time to babysit the pool too much, but any suggestions you have I will follow to the best of my ability.

thanks again ... Wes

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

High PH, TA and CH can cause scale to form. They just don't know any better apparently....

If you were to close at 7.6, 150 and 340 - I'm not overly alarmed with that. But you need to retest since you have added chems after that last test result you posted. Confirm where you are now at. I wouldn't close with the PH higher than 7.6.

I also would avoid a store that uses test strips. I would find a store that uses a taylor drop based kit. I wouldn't buy anything from any of the stores.... but test strips are terribly inaccurate whether they are read by a computer or not.

 

[duraleigh]

Hi, Wes,

I can say this without prejudice because I cannot sell the TF-100 in Canada.....

Why are you driving (spending money) to the pool store and have someone else guess at your water issues with questionable testing?

Do your own testing......it'll be the smartest pool money you ever spend. You will understand your pool, learn to trust your own results, and get tons of help from this forum.

Pool store testing is simply inadequate if you want to maintain your pool in a thoughtful, accurate way.

 

[PaulR]

I didn't know that the Bicarb would bring my pH down, so now I'm afraid that I'm starting that stupid pH/TA yo-yo game.

Bicarb (baking soda) mostly raises TA, but will also raise (not lower) pH a little bit. Lowering pH requires acid of some form, muriatic acid is the most common.

CYA - 0 (likely from the partial drain/refill ... was at 40ppm before that)

If it was 40, and you drained and refilled 40% of your water, then it should now be around 25 (60% of 40). That's low enough that it can read as zero on some tests.
--paulr

 

[wes8398]

frustratedpoolmom
From reading around here, I have learned exactly what you said about high TA, pH, CH causing scaling. It makes me mad that a store wouldn't think of that before simply suggesting a "blanket" closing chemistry. I will re-test tomorrow, at the store that uses the dropper testing, and post back.

duraleigh
Believe me, I fully intend on getting a TF-100...I'm just waiting 'til next season. I live in a border city and have a US mailing address that I could use, which is my plan. It would be nice to have a testing kit right now because it would be saving me a lot of headaches, but unfortunately I don't have time to order one because I want to get this pool closed this weekend. Because of the season, I can't even find that cheap HTH test kit anywhere, just to get me through closing.

PaulR
Before I added the bicarb I was getting ~7.8 pH readings from 3 different test strips, the store that tests with test strips, and the store that does the dropper testing. Maybe the 7.2 I got the other day (after adding the bicarb) was inaccurate because I didn't do anything else to see such a drop in pH...in which case adding that pH up was a bad idea! Guess we'll find out after the re-test tomorrow.
As for the CYA, in looking at my first post I remember that on the 23rd of September I was getting a 50ppm reading. Since then, maybe 40% of the pool water was replaced (brought CH from 600+ to 340-400 and tap water is 100ppm) so I guess I probably do still have some CYA in there. The TF-100 will tell me that in the spring I suppose.

 

[wes8398]

Went to the place that does the dropper testing today and here's what I got:

FC: 5
Total Chlorine: 5
pH: 8.2
Acid: 2
TA: 160
Adj. TA: 160
CH: 385
CYA: 30


I bought small jar of Bioguard Low 'N Slow ($6) and sprinkled ~500 grams into pool. Did a basic dropper test 5 hours later and pH appears to be around 7.6-7.8 now.
My fiance picked up a closing kit from Canadian Tire months ago. It consists of a Stain Preventer/Iron,copper,manganese remover (bottle says wont effect pH), a 40% poly quat algaecide, and a chlorine-free shock (which I don't plan to use). I also have about 3 gallons of 12.5% liquid chlorine. Hoping to close up tomorrow but it's supposed to rain pretty hard all day, so that might get postponed til Saturday or Sunday.

 

[polyvue]

I bought small jar of Bioguard Low 'N Slow ($6) and sprinkled ~500 grams into pool. Did a basic dropper test 5 hours later and pH appears to be around 7.6-7.8 now.

That'll work, I suppose. Can't you get Muriatic Acid (MA) where you are? I think that the recommended pH for closing the pool is a bit lower than your current reading of 7.6. If you run out of Lo 'N Slow ($6), try Muriatic 'N Acid ($5)... that's US$5 per non-imperial Gallon and a little goes a long way.

My fiance picked up a closing kit from Canadian Tire months ago. It consists of a Stain Preventer/Iron,copper,manganese remover (bottle says wont effect pH), a 40% poly quat algaecide, and a chlorine-free shock (which I don't plan to use).

Not sure you need any of these, though some here recommend Polyquat...

I also have about 3 gallons of 12.5% liquid chlorine. Hoping to close up tomorrow but it's supposed to rain pretty hard all day, so that might get postponed til Saturday or Sunday.

The 12.5% chlorine is for the "final" shock? If so, suggest lowering your pH to ~7.2 - 7.4 before you begin. Good luck on the close!

FC: 5
Total Chlorine: 5
pH: 8.2
Acid: 2
TA: 160
Adj. TA: 160
CH: 385
CYA: 30

Just to file away in your head...but the "Adj. TA" doesn't look very... well, adjusted! Not that it should matter to someone who's getting ready to close for the winter, but seeing this just bugged me! Next year, you'll know exactly what I'm saying.

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

As far as I know, PQ only comes in 30 or 60, and there's no reason to use 30 (why spend twice as much money?) - so I'm guessing the algeacide in the kit is a cheaper linear quat which we don't recommend. You may use it if you choose. Same with the stain preventative.

Either way, these things should be added last, after you have shocked the pool to ensure any/all organics have been zapped. So say this evening you shock, tomorrow if the FC is holding, you can add them, wait an hour in between these products, and then Sunday you can winterize the plumbing and cover.

I agree, in the future, stick with muratic acid for reducing the PH.

 

[wes8398]

Why does the 12.5% chlorine mean I should bring the pH down? 7.2 was where I was at a few days ago and I was advised to bring it up from there ... which brought it up too much, and I've now just brought it down again. lol Dang stores. hahaha

I don't want to argue here, but I need to throw this out there. Both local pool stores as well as a few other local resources (who aren't trying to sell stuff), suggest that it's beneficial for your winter closing pH and TA to be a bit higher than normal. 7.6-7.8 pH and 120-140 TA are what they all suggest. I don't know if that's because of the temperatures we see here over the winter, or because of the fact that the pool is closed for over 6 months, but that's what they suggest...which is obviously different from what the pool school and other people here suggest. Not sure which suggestions to follow.

I've read all about using muriatic acid in the pool school, but since I didn't have any around and the Low 'N Slow stuff was pretty cheap as well, I just got it. I've been in that store for 4 water analysis' and each time they've recommended a bunch of products, and I've always left the store empty handed. I figured why not appease them and buy one of their products for all the free testing they've done for me. haha Anyway, it seems to be working (bringing the pH down) so I'll use that til I run out and buy muriatic acid next time.

I'm pretty sure the algaecide is a poly quat ... I googled the label and learned that it was. The "guarantee" is as follows: Poly [(oxyethylene dimethyliminio) ethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene dichloride]...........40% Is that not a "poly quat"?

 

[polyvue]

I don't want to argue here, but I need to throw this out there. Both local pool stores as well as a few other local resources (who aren't trying to sell stuff), suggest that it's beneficial for your winter closing pH and TA to be a bit higher than normal. 7.6-7.8 pH and 120-140 TA are what they all suggest.

Since I don't have to deal with closing my pool perhaps my suggestions should be taken as conventional wisdom (but apparently not in Ontario pool stores!) The recommendation to drop the pH to 7.2-7.3 prior to the shock is based on my discovery that significant additions of liquid chlorine tend to increase the pH level (it's problematic to test pH once a shock is underway.) However, the long term net effect of chlorine addition may not be as pronounced.

Other pool owners here may wish to give you their reasoning. For what it's worth, here's the advice given in Pool School:

Balance - I bring PH to between 7.4 and 7.6 and make sure TA and CH are not too far out of line. This is generally easy as everything pretty much remains balanced all the time.

• Source: Closing an In Ground Pool

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Why does the 12.5% chlorine mean I should bring the pH down? 7.2 was where I was at a few days ago and I was advised to bring it up from there ... which brought it up too much, and I've now just brought it down again. lol **** stores. hahaha

I don't want to argue here, but I need to throw this out there. Both local pool stores as well as a few other local resources (who aren't trying to sell stuff), suggest that it's beneficial for your winter closing pH and TA to be a bit higher than normal. 7.6-7.8 pH and 120-140 TA are what they all suggest. I don't know if that's because of the temperatures we see here over the winter, or because of the fact that the pool is closed for over 6 months, but that's what they suggest...which is obviously different from what the pool school and other people here suggest. Not sure which suggestions to follow.

I've read all about using muriatic acid in the pool school, but since I didn't have any around and the Low 'N Slow stuff was pretty cheap as well, I just got it. I've been in that store for 4 water analysis' and each time they've recommended a bunch of products, and I've always left the store empty handed. I figured why not appease them and buy one of their products for all the free testing they've done for me. haha Anyway, it seems to be working (bringing the pH down) so I'll use that til I run out and buy muriatic acid next time.

I'm pretty sure the algaecide is a poly quat ... I googled the label and learned that it was. The "guarantee" is as follows: Poly [(oxyethylene dimethyliminio) ethylene (dimethyliminio) ethylene dichloride]...........40% Is that not a "poly quat"?

I totally understand your concern but Pool Stores are known for giving bad or just plain wrong advice....some give printouts to their customers that actually state the "acceptable" range for CYA is 30-200.

Honestly it's entirely up to you if you want to close at the higher PH then do so, with either number we can't truly predict where things will end up in the spring. Your original goal to lower CH was important and you succeeded so I do think regardless - that you'll end up ok

Yes that's a polyquat. I've not seen it in 40%, so I stand corrected ...go for it

 

[PaulR]

The recommendation to drop the pH to 7.2-7.3 prior to the shock is based on my discovery that significant additions of liquid chlorine tend to increase the pH level (it's problematic to test pH once a shock is underway.) However, the long term net effect of chlorine addition may not be as pronounced.

That is actually the case. The pH of straight bleach is fairly high, but the processes that "consume" the chlorine are acidic, so the net effect is minimal. This is the case for any hypochlorite (sodium/bleach, cal-hypo, or lithium).
--paulr

 

[polyvue]

The recommendation to drop the pH to 7.2-7.3 prior to the shock is based on my discovery that significant additions of liquid chlorine tend to increase the pH level (it's problematic to test pH once a shock is underway.) However, the long term net effect of chlorine addition may not be as pronounced.

That is actually the case. The pH of straight bleach is fairly high, but the processes that "consume" the chlorine are acidic, so the net effect is minimal. This is the case for any hypochlorite (sodium/bleach, cal-hypo, or lithium).
--paulr

Thanks, Paul. The other reason I suggest lower pH, unmentioned in my post above, is to improve efficacy of the shock process but, for the life of me, I can't remember or locate the reason why this is so.

 

[wes8398]

First off, thanks everyone for all your help. As I learn more, I hope I can start to help others out around here, as you guys/girls have for me. I tested pH this morning with my cheap-o Phenol Red test and it appeared to be ~7.6 which I was happy with. I "hung" the lights and my buddy and I got the vinyl/liner-type cover on it this afternoon. I'm going to drain and blow out lines tomorrow and that'll be the end of that for 7 months or so I also added another gallon or so of 12.5% for good measure.

The recommendation to drop the pH to 7.2-7.3 prior to the shock is based on my discovery that significant additions of liquid chlorine tend to increase the pH level (it's problematic to test pH once a shock is underway.) However, the long term net effect of chlorine addition may not be as pronounced.

That is actually the case. The pH of straight bleach is fairly high, but the processes that "consume" the chlorine are acidic, so the net effect is minimal. This is the case for any hypochlorite (sodium/bleach, cal-hypo, or lithium).
--paulr

So does this mean that pH testing is only accurate after a certain time period has passed since any chlorine/bleach has been added to the pool? If so, is there a specific time period? Reason I ask is that I've been adding chlorine quite frequently and usually testing pH within the same day ... never within a few hours of adding the chlorine though.

 

[Butterfly]

There is no "specific time period".

Generally, we suggest that you test pH only when your FC is below 10, which should avoid a false-high pH reading (from a high FC level).

 

[PaulR]

I'm heading out onto thinner ice here, but... the pH is what it is. Adding bleach might bring it up a little. Adding acid might bring it down a little. FC doing its thing might bring it down a little. The aeration from a cannonball might bring it up a little. But, as long as the water is circulating and you've given it enough time that whatever you did to it has evened out, then your pH test will tell you something worthwhile.

I usually figure it takes 30-60 minutes for things to settle down after I do something to the pool.
--paulr

 

[zea3]

You can always test your pH before you add the bleach. I usually test pH once a week since all I add right now is bleach. Get enough pool water to run both tests. You'll know where pH is and how much chlorine to add.