It was mike's first post, how can you know from his text that he is selling, he has stated he purchased. Is that really the sort of welcome to the forum we should be giving?bk406 said:I believe Mike is selling PR-10,000. Can we say troll
Phosphates can be a serious problem
- Thread starter jaybo500
- Start date
Mike,
I wrote about my own experience with Orenda Technologies PR-10000 in this post. I only used it because I had communicated with the current owner of the company, met him, and he gave me a sample to try -- that is, my pool was an experiment. Even though I had > 3000 ppb phosphates in my pool, I did not have algae problems nor anything unusual (except the pool would be very reactive IF the FC/CYA ratio got too low) because I maintained the proper Free Chlorine (FC) level relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level as do tens of thousands of pool owners on this and other related forums. After lowering phosphate levels, there was no apparent change in chlorine demand, which was already a low 1 ppm FC per day, after getting the phosphate level down. I'll continue to monitor next season as well just to be sure.
I suspect that the problems in the pools you have been seeing are related to the implied use of stabilized chlorine products you mentioned, including 3" chlorine tabs which are very likely to be Trichlor and chlorine shock which could be either Cal-Hypo or Dichlor. The following are chemical facts that are independent of concentration of product or of pool size:
For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.
So even with a very low 1 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, continued use of Trichlor as the sole source of chlorine would have the CYA increase by over 100 ppm in 6 months if there were no water dilution. The amount of active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) that kills pathogens and prevents algae growth is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio so as the CYA level climbs, the active chlorine level drops unless you proportionally raise the FC level to compensate. So you can very well have pools with seemingly high FC levels and still get algae because the CYA level is very high. This is all known science since at least 1974 as described in this paper that definitively determined the chlorine/CYA relationship.
If you want to blindly use stabilized chlorine products and not control the CYA level, then you can certainly spend more on algaecides or phosphate removers to try and prevent algae growth, but it is not necessary. (Yes, if you are going to use a phosphate remover, then PR-10000 at $31/quart or $98/gallon is more cost effective than other brands as it is highly concentrated.) You can instead use unstabilized chlorine to maintain a consistent FC/CYA level or use a hybrid approach with some stabilized chlorine but again monitoring and adjusting the FC/CYA level according to the Chlorine / CYA Chart.
I have a 16,000 gallon pool shown here and here where I only add 12.5% chlorinating liquid twice a week plus a small amount of acid once a month or so for a total cost of $15 per month. When I first got the pool 7-1/2 years ago, I started out using Trichlor, but in the middle of the second season the water started to turn dull, then cloudy and I couldn't keep up with chlorine demand -- it was a nascent algae bloom. This was in spite of using a PolyQuat/linear quat algaecide combo but only every other week. Even with my very low chlorine usage at the time (the pool wasn't used as frequently) my CYA level had climbed from 30 ppm to 150 ppm in 1-1/2 seasons. Had I not used an algaecide, I would have had problems even sooner, probably before the end of the first season, and had I used it weekly I may have gone another season before problems occurred. After these problems I decided to take matters into my own hands and learned pool water chemistry, ran into The PoolForum and PoolSolutions and learned from those sites (started by Ben Powell) about the need to have a certain FC level relative to the CYA level to prevent algae growth. The science confirmed this and now many pool owners benefit including over 17,000 registered users (plus many more unregistered lurkers) here at Trouble Free Pool (TFP).
Richard
I wrote about my own experience with Orenda Technologies PR-10000 in this post. I only used it because I had communicated with the current owner of the company, met him, and he gave me a sample to try -- that is, my pool was an experiment. Even though I had > 3000 ppb phosphates in my pool, I did not have algae problems nor anything unusual (except the pool would be very reactive IF the FC/CYA ratio got too low) because I maintained the proper Free Chlorine (FC) level relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level as do tens of thousands of pool owners on this and other related forums. After lowering phosphate levels, there was no apparent change in chlorine demand, which was already a low 1 ppm FC per day, after getting the phosphate level down. I'll continue to monitor next season as well just to be sure.
I suspect that the problems in the pools you have been seeing are related to the implied use of stabilized chlorine products you mentioned, including 3" chlorine tabs which are very likely to be Trichlor and chlorine shock which could be either Cal-Hypo or Dichlor. The following are chemical facts that are independent of concentration of product or of pool size:
For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.
So even with a very low 1 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, continued use of Trichlor as the sole source of chlorine would have the CYA increase by over 100 ppm in 6 months if there were no water dilution. The amount of active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) that kills pathogens and prevents algae growth is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio so as the CYA level climbs, the active chlorine level drops unless you proportionally raise the FC level to compensate. So you can very well have pools with seemingly high FC levels and still get algae because the CYA level is very high. This is all known science since at least 1974 as described in this paper that definitively determined the chlorine/CYA relationship.
If you want to blindly use stabilized chlorine products and not control the CYA level, then you can certainly spend more on algaecides or phosphate removers to try and prevent algae growth, but it is not necessary. (Yes, if you are going to use a phosphate remover, then PR-10000 at $31/quart or $98/gallon is more cost effective than other brands as it is highly concentrated.) You can instead use unstabilized chlorine to maintain a consistent FC/CYA level or use a hybrid approach with some stabilized chlorine but again monitoring and adjusting the FC/CYA level according to the Chlorine / CYA Chart.
I have a 16,000 gallon pool shown here and here where I only add 12.5% chlorinating liquid twice a week plus a small amount of acid once a month or so for a total cost of $15 per month. When I first got the pool 7-1/2 years ago, I started out using Trichlor, but in the middle of the second season the water started to turn dull, then cloudy and I couldn't keep up with chlorine demand -- it was a nascent algae bloom. This was in spite of using a PolyQuat/linear quat algaecide combo but only every other week. Even with my very low chlorine usage at the time (the pool wasn't used as frequently) my CYA level had climbed from 30 ppm to 150 ppm in 1-1/2 seasons. Had I not used an algaecide, I would have had problems even sooner, probably before the end of the first season, and had I used it weekly I may have gone another season before problems occurred. After these problems I decided to take matters into my own hands and learned pool water chemistry, ran into The PoolForum and PoolSolutions and learned from those sites (started by Ben Powell) about the need to have a certain FC level relative to the CYA level to prevent algae growth. The science confirmed this and now many pool owners benefit including over 17,000 registered users (plus many more unregistered lurkers) here at Trouble Free Pool (TFP).
Richard
Don't blame Mike. Until recently, whenever a customer had a green pool problem, the blame went onto Orthophosphates (or algeas stuck on god-mode). It's not the pucks that greatlt overstabilized your pool (who does the CYA test anyways), not you who forgot to put in chlorine in your pool, it's those baaaaad orthophosphates that serves as food / tie up chlorine or whatever.
Sad thing, was Mike even selling PR - 10,000 I doubt he was trolling. I believe he was gueninely providing informations, and to one not informed about the CYA-Free Chlorine relation, the explanation he gave (and prior to this received) seems true enough.
Welcome aboard Mike. This place is an hoard of knowledge and useful tricks your customers will definitely enjoy.
Sad thing, was Mike even selling PR - 10,000 I doubt he was trolling. I believe he was gueninely providing informations, and to one not informed about the CYA-Free Chlorine relation, the explanation he gave (and prior to this received) seems true enough.
Welcome aboard Mike. This place is an hoard of knowledge and useful tricks your customers will definitely enjoy.
teapot said:
I calls em like I see's em. He posted on a thread that was started over a year ago for one thing, and hasnt been back since.
Any good salesman knows a good technique is to say "wow, i just bought the most amazing product. Here's what it did for me!!!, and it can do the same for you, i'm sure".
mikehara said:
Sounds either like a whole neighborhood using chlorine tabs / phosfree or someone who actually tries to help his customers. Before I found TFP I could have said exactly the same, which few poolowners would.
C'mon, bk, play nice :-D One post and he hasn't come back yet and you think he's a troll 
I've been hearing the phosphate "pitch" a ton this year, but we've had an extremely cool summer and the pool supply houses are desperate. Nitrates are the other one I hear a lot (my rig can remove this stuff, and I send people here for the truth either way!). Sad when people put profits ahead of helping others.
I've been hearing the phosphate "pitch" a ton this year, but we've had an extremely cool summer and the pool supply houses are desperate. Nitrates are the other one I hear a lot (my rig can remove this stuff, and I send people here for the truth either way!). Sad when people put profits ahead of helping others.
simicrintz said:C'mon, bk, play nice :-D One post and he hasn't come back yet and you think he's a troll
.
After being on a couple of other boards besides this one for several years, I have a nose for sniffing out trolls, spammers, salesmen, etc. And..on occasion i have been wrong, but not much
Just going off topic for a minute, how fine does your moveable rig filter? and what have you got in there?simicrintz said:C'mon, bk, play nice :-D One post and he hasn't come back yet and you think he's a troll
I've been hearing the phosphate "pitch" a ton this year, but we've had an extremely cool summer and the pool supply houses are desperate. Nitrates are the other one I hear a lot (my rig can remove this stuff, and I send people here for the truth either way!). Sad when people put profits ahead of helping others.
What would you like me to remove Long story short, I run the water through a bag pre-filter, a sand filter, and then through nine 8" Reverse Osmosis membranes, so there is not much left in the water once it's run the course. Nitrates, CYA, CH, salt, etc., it all comes out!
It doesn't like algae much, but I have run it through (the bag filter caught most of that). We've done 12,000+ TDS and 1,300+ CH, and have no idea how high of CYA we've had and brought down to 30 ppm (or less).
We can mount in line also, for larger jobs (I'll be in Vegas looking at several hotels/casinos this weekend that are considering the in line systems). The trailer rigs can do 40,000+ gallons a day though, so they work well for a lot of different applications.
Long story short, I run the water through a bag pre-filter, a sand filter, and then through nine 8" Reverse Osmosis membranes, so there is not much left in the water once it's run the course. Nitrates, CYA, CH, salt, etc., it all comes out!It doesn't like algae much, but I have run it through (the bag filter caught most of that). We've done 12,000+ TDS and 1,300+ CH, and have no idea how high of CYA we've had and brought down to 30 ppm (or less).
We can mount in line also, for larger jobs (I'll be in Vegas looking at several hotels/casinos this weekend that are considering the in line systems). The trailer rigs can do 40,000+ gallons a day though, so they work well for a lot of different applications.
That's fascinating and good use of water, saves wasting. Do your customers benefit from a reduction in chlorine demand post treatment?
teapot said:
Sorry for the delay (
), I've been in Las Vegas since Friday and am just getting back to the computer!Yes, they do reduce their chemical levels, and I feel that there is some benefit from that by removing the CH, although I get conflicting reports on the validity of my beliefs! Since most of the pools we see are also high in CYA, we do know that we can remove or lower that down to correct levels, and we all know that allows for lower FC levels!
The biggest kick we get is seeing the water clarity happen. Oftentimes we will suck the water from the pool and return in through the spa, and people just are amazed at the difference between the two bodies! After we are done with the process, they are always amazed at the appearance of their water. Even though we know what we've removed, the visual is pretty dramatic and satisfying!
teapot said:It was mike's first post, how can you know from his text that he is selling, he has stated he purchased. Is that really the sort of welcome to the forum we should be giving?bk406 said:I believe Mike is selling PR-10,000. Can we say troll
Back to the original topic. Well, it's been 7 days and still noly one post. Think old mike still isn't a salesman?
With the greatest respect bk406, the original topic is about phosphates not your witch hunt against Mike.bk406 said:teapot said:It was mike's first post, how can you know from his text that he is selling, he has stated he purchased. Is that really the sort of welcome to the forum we should be giving?bk406 said:I believe Mike is selling PR-10,000. Can we say troll
Back to the original topic. Well, it's been 7 days and still noly one post. Think old mike still isn't a salesman?
It is rare to have access to a reverse osmosis system that can clean whole pools of almost everything and go on to answer the questions that show having the best filtration can lower your chemical usage. This is relevant as new equipment becomes available like Pentair with it's ultrafine filtering laterals (although we have yet to discover how fine) could have us all using less chlorine etc.
I am sure I read a report that said the human eye cannot detect clarity of water below 35 microns so it really makes you wonder how dirty the water was before you started? I could a difference in my own pool water (although it was very clear before I changed the filter medium) When I changed it to AFM (posh glass) as it can filter finer than sand (No I am not selling it) that too has allowed me to run with lower chlorine although the weather conditions that you experience in parts of the US will mean varying results especially with trees etc droping so much into some pools.simicrintz said:teapot said:
Sorry for the delay (
Yes, they do reduce their chemical levels, and I feel that there is some benefit from that by removing the CH, although I get conflicting reports on the validity of my beliefs! Since most of the pools we see are also high in CYA, we do know that we can remove or lower that down to correct levels, and we all know that allows for lower FC levels!
The biggest kick we get is seeing the water clarity happen. Oftentimes we will suck the water from the pool and return in through the spa, and people just are amazed at the difference between the two bodies! After we are done with the process, they are always amazed at the appearance of their water. Even though we know what we've removed, the visual is pretty dramatic and satisfying!
Out of interest what sort of TDS levels do you record before and after filtering?
AFM is an interesting product!
http://www.afm.eu/
Do you have an air injection system for your setup teapot?
http://www.afm.eu/
Do you have an air injection system for your setup teapot?
teapot said:
Not a witch hunt. And...with all due respect, this thread is over a year old. The RO topic was brought up by you when you said "going off topic for a minute". If you want to talk about RO, start another thread.
teapot said:
We've stared as high as 12,000 TDS and we usually shut down between 700-900 TDS. We can go lower, but have not went below 600 to date. TDS is what the machine reads and what we set as our shut off levels, although we check CYA and CH to make sure they are where we want them as opposed to allowing TDS to dictate. We are more concerned with removing those two items from the water. Those (CYA and CH) are what cause us the most "problems" here.
Back to the topic:bk406 said:
AFM air injection? I have used air scour to backwash the filter at a high rate but not an air injection as such.
Impressive, I can certainly understand the CH and CYA problems, my fill water has a TA of 220-240ppm hence the interest although it would be one heck of a journey for you :lol: I have had to drain two pools at the start of the season for CYA an in France the water is metered and not cheap. Do you know at what point CYA CH and phosphates are removed, 0.5 micron or finer still?simicrintz said:
teapot said:
Not off hand, but I can find out! Too many numbers floating around in my head to keep track of them all, and I don't get asked this one much, so I will have to go back and check. I'll see if I can have an answer later today yet!