Elevated spa drains to pool level when pump is off and pool jet is not working

[newbie_pool]

Hi,

I've been having this pool for a few years now and this is very first time I have experienced somewhat major issue. A few days ago, I noticed the water in our elevated spa has drained to the pool water level. After spending a few hours googling and went through this forum, I have tried these steps here:

1. Checked the check valve and it seems fine but since it's a common cause for why the spa water drains, I went ahead and replace with the new valve flapper. Follow the instruction tightly and even use lube to lubricate around the ring and flapper (picture 1)
2. Checked the pool pump basket to make sure there is no debris or anything that could cause the water not flowing (picture 2)
3. No air leak front and back of the pump either (picture 2)
3. Clean the filter and check the PSI (it stays at 25 PSI). Is that low?
4. The water still drain after the pump is off. And when the pool is on, I also noticed there is no pressure coming out from the pool jets and the same with the skimmer. However, the spa jets works properly and the water overflow to the pool properly though.

One thing I don't fully understand how they work is the pool valve actuator so I couldn't tell if the valves are failed or not. Unfortunately, there is no label anywhere so I don't actually know where MAIN drain and where is the RETURN water, etc. I'm attaching the picture and if someone can kindly explain what #1 valve and #2 valve mean. Should they both turn when I switch between spa and pool mode? I can't recall how they work before but I noticed only #2 is switching 180. Should #1 switch as well? Would that be the cause for the spa drain?

Before I need to call the pool professional, I'm hoping if anyone can provide other suggestions on what other steps I can check here. Or if I can get some explanation on how the pool system works in general or based on pictures I have provided here to determine if any of my valves here are working properly or not.

 

[Dodger]

One issue: If the actuated valve on the left is not turning when you switch to Spa mode, then you are taking water in from the spa at the right valve, and returning it to the pool at the left valve. To fix this, there is a toggle switch underneath that actuator box and it is probably set to the middle/OFF position. The toggle switch should be set either to the right or left, whichever makes it match the spa direction and pool direction of the right side actuator.


edited to add: To be clear, the current picture shows intake from pool and return to pool. That is good for Pool Mode. The OFF on the handles are pointing the opposite directions. If you change the toggle on the left box while in Pool Mode, it should not move the handle from where it is now. But then when Spa Mode is selected, the handle will automatically move to the other side without you changing the toggle again. Hope that makes sense.

 

[newbie_pool]

One issue: If the actuated valve on the left is not turning when you switch to Spa mode, then you are taking water in from the spa at the right valve, and returning it to the pool at the left valve. To fix this, there is a toggle switch underneath that actuator box and it is probably set to the middle/OFF position. The toggle switch should be set either to the right or left, whichever makes it match the spa direction and pool direction of the right side actuator.


edited to add: To be clear, the current picture shows intake from pool and return to pool. That is good for Pool Mode. The OFF on the handles are pointing the opposite directions. If you change the toggle on the left box while in Pool Mode, it should not move the handle from where it is now. But then when Spa Mode is selected, the handle will automatically move to the other side without you changing the toggle again. Hope that makes sense.

Thanks for your response. So I found the toggle switch on the left valve actuator. The switch is up, middle, and down and it was down. So while it was in Spa mode, I set the toggle switch but the handle does not switch. Only the right valve actuator switched when switching between Pool and Spa mode. Does it mean the left valve actuator is bad?

To be clear, should both left and right valve point to the same direction when switch to Spa mode? The picture I attached show when it was in Pool mode and when in Spa mode, right valve rotates 180 which mean both left and valve are now in the direction. Hope this makes sense.

 

[Dodger]

From what you are saying and your picture indicates, they should NOT be pointing the same direction for Spa Mode. The left valve is blocking intake from return to the spa in the picture, which it should do in Pool Mode. If it stays there, you won't draw send water from to the spa when in Spa Mode. In other words, it should rotate 180 degrees for Spa Mode, just like the right actuator.

So when you manually toggle that switch to either up or down, the actuator doesn't move at all? Do you hear the motor trying? Does the box get warm? If no sound or vibration, then it may be dead or lacking power. I would shut everything off and open up the actuator to see if there is an obvious issue with it's rotation.

 

[newbie_pool]

From what you are saying and your picture indicates, they should NOT be pointing the same direction for Spa Mode. The left valve is blocking intake from the spa in the picture, which it should do in Pool Mode. If it stays there, you won't draw water from the spa when in Spa Mode. In other words, it should rotate 180 degrees for Spa Mode, just like the right actuator.

So when you manually toggle that switch to either up or down, the actuator doesn't move at all? Do you hear the motor trying? Does the box get warm? If no sound or vibration, then it may be dead or lacking power. I would shut everything off and open up the actuator to see if there is an obvious issue with it's rotation.

I think I found out the problem. The left valve actuator is bad. I don't hear any motor sound at all so I removed it and manually turn the valve to the same direction as the right valve actuator and then everything is back to normal. No more draining in the spa and the pool jets are now functioning.

But from what you explain above, I'm confusing again... I'm attaching the picture again showing the current set for pool mode and that solved the original problem.

Now my question is how do I know if the motor is bad or just the wire? I did noticed the wire was exposed so I had to push the plastic cover for the wire back into the hole (am I making sense here?). Or should I just replace the whole thing?

 

[Dodger]

Sorry, I found an error in my post #4 just as you were posting. The left valve should have been referred to as "return". Please see the lineouts in that post.

As far as determining if it's the wire or the motor, I'm not clear what you are describing. I would certainly trace the wire back to the control board and make sure it is plugged in to see if that makes it work. But after that, I hope someone else on here has an idea for you.


Also, if both "OFF" positions are to the right for Pool Mode, then I'm not sure what the check valve that you originally fixed on the far left is for (picture was removed?). If your spa is elevated, there should be a check valve on the spa return somewhere.

 

[newbie_pool]

Sorry, I found an error in my post #4 just as you were posting. The left valve should have been referred to as "return". Please see the lineouts in that post.

As far as determining if it's the wire or the motor, I'm not clear what you are describing. I would certainly trace the wire back to the control board and make sure it is plugged in to see if that makes it work. But after that, I hope someone else on here has an idea for you.


Also, if both "OFF" positions are to the right for Pool Mode, then I'm not sure what the check valve that you originally fixed on the far left is for (picture was removed?). If your spa is elevated, there should be a check valve on the spa return somewhere.

I don't understand either how this works either especially based on what you explained to me. So from the latest picture, they are in "OFF" positions? Unfortunately, I didn't notice how they worked before until there is actual problem. Hmm, what is the purpose of the left valve then? Here is another picture showing the check valve on the left side. As soon as I manually rotated the left valve, I can see the water flowing through the check valve.

 

[Dodger]

If water is flowing through the check valve while the actuator is in the pictured position (OFF writing on the left side), then I think your valve handle has become misaligned with the diverter flap inside the valve. You'd have to shut everything off and open up the 3-way valve to confirm it, and then you can realign the handle to the diverter. While you are there, make sure the diverter flap and its o-ring look okay.

 

[newbie_pool]

If water is flowing through the check valve while the actuator is in the pictured position (OFF writing on the left side), then I think your valve handle has become misaligned with the diverter flap inside the valve. You'd have to shut everything off and open up the 3-way valve to confirm it, and then you can realign the handle to the diverter. While you are there, make sure the diverter flap and its o-ring look okay.

Thanks again for going back and forth with me on this. So I'm removing the previous picture and attached the latest one showing current setting now. They are seem to be both in "OFF" position and as you stated, that shouldn't be OFF so there might be some valve handle misalignment here. One more thing, when I tried to rotate the left handle, the water is dripping. So could it be I have a leak there or just misaligned?

In summary, here is my understand how the valves should work according to your explanation:
SHOULD BE setting:
When in Pool Mode,
--- Left valve should rotate 180 to "ON" position, right valve should rotate 180 to "OFF" position
When in Spa Mode,
--- Left valve should rotate 180 to "OFF" position, right value should rotate 180 to "ON" position

CURRENT setting:
When in Pool Mode,
--- Left valve is "OFF" position, right valve is also "OFF" position - Possibly a misalignment with left valve?
--- Left valve is "ON" position, right value is "OFF position - spa water is draining when pump is off and no pressure come out from pool jets
When in Spa Mode,
--- Left valve is "ON" position, right valve is also "ON" position - causing water dripping/leaking in left valve
--- Left valve is "OFF" position, right value is "ON" position - losing water in spa

 

[Dodger]

newb, I have trouble thinking of "ON" as a position all by itself for the valves, since ON for Pool/Spa is the same as OFF for Spa/Pool. All at the same time. Does that make sense?

To me, ON is the side where the handle hangs (180 degrees opposite of the flap that says OFF on it). My brain needs to attach where the pipes go (pool or spa) along with which way the handle is pointing. So I wouldn't just say "ON", but "Spa ON" or "Pool ON".

In your setup, I believe the OFFs should both point inward, toward each other, for Spa Mode. And the OFFs should both point outward, or away from each other, for Pool Mode.

By the way, I keep forgetting to ask you to fill out your signature. Understanding your equipment and those manual valves would be easier if we know what kind of pool and features you have. I'm guessing you have an air blower and maybe a water feature, plus main drain and skimmer intake, but it would be better if you can list that all.


Sorry, forgot to address the dripping. Is it just dripping from where the handle connects to the top of the valve plate? If I recall, I think there is a little o-ring there.

 

[Dodger]

Do you also run a "spillover" mode where the spa spills over into the pool? The last pic you posted (both OFF positions pointing to the right) may be that valve position. In this case, the pool jets would not have any return.

If you can reduce your picture size so that you don't have to keep deleting pics in previous posts, it will be easier to keep track of what you are seeing in each valve position.

 

[newbie_pool]

Do you also run a "spillover" mode where the spa spills over into the pool? The last pic you posted (both OFF positions pointing to the right) may be that valve position. In this case, the pool jets would not have any return.

If you can reduce your picture size so that you don't have to keep deleting pics in previous posts, it will be easier to keep track of what you are seeing in each valve position.

Thanks, learning something new everyday. I'm only aware that there is two options which is either run in pool mode (spa water is spillover to the pool) or run in spa mode (heater turn on and no spillover to the pool). Now I noticed two additional options (fill and drain).

Right now, my pool is back on operating properly with the setting that I have shown in my latest picture but I haven't checked how it would operate in Spa mode. Should I need to manually rotate the left valve? The right valve will automatically rotate 180 in Spa mode.

I wish there were labels as I am still unclear where is the main drain, the skimmer, etc...

 

[Dodger]

What you are calling "Pool mode" is actually Spillover mode. Because the spa water is spilling over. True pool mode isolates the pool water from the spa water.

I should have listed these earlier, but there are 4 possible combinations of the 2 actuated valves - both left, both right, one left/one right, one right/one left, not necessarily in that order wrt below list. The names may vary slightly, but I'll use these.

1. POOL MODE : intake is from the pool and return is to the pool. Pool jets are active, spa jets are NOT active.

2. SPA MODE: intake is from the spa and return is to the spa. Pool jets are NOT active. This is the mode you want when you are keeping heated water within the spa only.

3. SPA FILL MODE (aka Spillover Mode): intake is from the pool and return is to the spa in the basic spillover setting. Pool jets are NOT active, spa jets are active.

4. SPA DRAIN MODE: intake is from the spa and return is to the pool.

Now, let's talk about your original post.

* If the spa is draining when the pump is off, that is often because the check valve is not functioning.
* If the spa is draining when the pump is on, that is often because the 2 valves are configured for #4 above.
* If the spa is not draining, but water is spilling over the spa wall into the pool, you have valves configured for #3 above.

This may explain most of the issues you originally posted about. Once you have a handle(!) on these valve combinations, you can put labels on your valve handles or actuators.

 

[kadavis]

Are you using the Tablet feeder, if so you really need a check valve (corrosion resistant) between the chlorinator and the heater

 

[newbie_pool]

Once again, thanks for your replies and suggestions. I think I have narrowed down the issue. It was a bad actuator and I noticed that it's a common problem with the micro switch so trying to order the part and go from there. And I also finally understand how the valves are working with the combination explanation above.