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Thread: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

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    Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Hello all, read on here a lot, but don't post much. So we are new to pools and I had no idea what bonding was until I hard plumbed a Hayward pump and read the requirement in the installation section.

    Here is my dilemma:
    We have an Intex 12x24x52 Ultra Frame pool sitting on a concrete pad that was built specifically for the pool by our contractor (brand new house). The concrete pad is perfectly level BUT it is not "wired" to bond as part of a pool system. Is it safer to bond SOME of the pool or NONE of the pool? I can bond the water with the skimmer lug and connect a copper wire to all the legs (if needed) but I cannot dig around the pool because 2 sides of the concrete pad are attached to back wall of the house and the side of the porch.

    The pump is the 1.5 hp Matrix and it is plugged into a GFI.


    Thanks for any advice!

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    JoyfulNoise's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Does the concrete slab have rebar or mesh in it?
    Matt
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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    An incomplete bonding system is more dangerous then no bonding system.

    If you can expose rebar in the 4 corners of you pad and attach bonding wire to it then do the bonding loop. If you cant get the pad bonded don't bo anything else.
    Chuck-
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Thanks for the replies. The concrete has rebar in it, but would be nearly impossible to tie into at all 4 corners. The back wall of the house and the porch make like an L shape that form 2 sides of the slab. I will post pics later. I was worried that bonding only part would make it more dangerous and it sounds like that is in fact the case.

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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    I said corners because its easier to describe. What you are looking for is to connect to the rebar at 3-4 points equally spread out around the pool.

    The purpose of bonding to is to bring the pool, and everything around it to the same electrical potential. That way no matter what you touch in and around the pool you can't get shocked, because even though there may be voltage there it can't flow because there is no potential. Its a similar concept as when birds land on super high voltage wires and don't get electrocuted.
    Chuck-
    15x30 AG, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
    Aqua Comfort ACT750 heat pump / 6x20 ground mount solar panel / DIY automation

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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Here are some pics of the setup. Pump will be moved later this week because it is too far from the GFI outlet. Thanks again for all the advice everyone.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    I am interested to see the outcome of this thread. If I recall the above ground pools similar to yours don't require bonding.

    With that being said in order for everything to be on the same electrical potential you would need to bond your frame, water, concrete pad, and pump. Also depending on your electrical code you might need to bond to that black metal fence and gutters in your picture.
    20X40 Ingound Hydra Pool
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Another thing I am concerned about is the fact that concrete pad is part of the house foundation. That would affect bonding as well, correct? What I'm worried about is bonding only the water and metal of the pool, then that creates path through something else like the concrete pad. The deck that connects to the porch actually sits on the concrete pad with 4x4 legs.

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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin74 View Post
    Another thing I am concerned about is the fact that concrete pad is part of the house foundation. That would affect bonding as well, correct? What I'm worried about is bonding only the water and metal of the pool, then that creates path through something else like the concrete pad. The deck that connects to the porch actually sits on the concrete pad with 4x4 legs.

    Are you sure it is part of your foundation? Was it poured the same time as your slab for the house?

    You have to read on your local electrical code. Anything with 4ft in has to be bonded. This includes down spouts and fencing.
    20X40 Ingound Hydra Pool
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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Current NEC code requires the following for new installations. Any pool over with 42" or more of water should be fully bonded, they make no distinction about the construction of the pool.

    Unless the rebar under the pool is connected to the rebar in the house foundation there is no connection between the two. The concrete may touch but they are not connected. Unless it was all poured at the same time there is very little chance the patio and your house are truly connected in a structural sense.

    As for the fence or other metal objects the rules are as follows.

    If it is made of metal, permanently mounted, surface area greater that 4 square inches, and closer that 60" the side of the pool wall it should be part of the bonding loop. Any metal conduit or conduit fittings/boxes regardless of size within 60" must be bonded.

    In other words a wooden deck isn't metal so that's ok
    A downspout is permanently attached and big enough but is it closer than 60". Same goes for the fence.
    A metal framed patio chair or table doesn't need to be bonded because it's not permanently attached to anything.
    Chuck-
    15x30 AG, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
    Aqua Comfort ACT750 heat pump / 6x20 ground mount solar panel / DIY automation

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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    I wonder if the entire frame is powder coated making this exercise futile???



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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    The frame not being conductive does not exclude the rest of the pool from requiring bonding. In the case of a non conductive frame the NEC says you don't have to bond the frame. They still expect the rest of the bonding to be completed.

    Either way powder coating metal doesn't make the metal non-conductive. It would only take a microscopic crack in the powder coating to let electricity thru. Fiberglass, resin, and plastic frames would be considered non-conductive. Even then some of those frames have significant metal re-enforcement which may need to be bonded.

    The plastic joints in the intex frames are what make bonding most intex frames impractical. You would literally need a wire jumper at every single joint in the frame to make it a continuous piece. If the intex frame is all steel with no plastic joints it should be bonded like a traditional above ground pool.
    Chuck-
    15x30 AG, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
    Aqua Comfort ACT750 heat pump / 6x20 ground mount solar panel / DIY automation

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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Forgive my ignorance on this matter.... I have a 15 foot above ground pool and the pump/filter is plugged into a bubble cover GFCI outlet. What does bonding mean.... Am I doing something unsafe?
    Location: Long Island, NY
    Gallons: 5000 Gallons
    Pool: 15' Saltwater 5000
    Filter: Pentair 1 HP Optiflow Pump w/ Clean & Clear 75Sq Ft Cartridge Filter
    SWG: Intex CS8110

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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJadamec View Post
    Current NEC code requires the following for new installations. Any pool over with 42" or more of water should be fully bonded, they make no distinction about the construction of the pool.

    Unless the rebar under the pool is connected to the rebar in the house foundation there is no connection between the two. The concrete may touch but they are not connected. Unless it was all poured at the same time there is very little chance the patio and your house are truly connected in a structural sense.

    As for the fence or other metal objects the rules are as follows.

    If it is made of metal, permanently mounted, surface area greater that 4 square inches, and closer that 60" the side of the pool wall it should be part of the bonding loop. Any metal conduit or conduit fittings/boxes regardless of size within 60" must be bonded.

    In other words a wooden deck isn't metal so that's ok
    A downspout is permanently attached and big enough but is it closer than 60". Same goes for the fence.
    A metal framed patio chair or table doesn't need to be bonded because it's not permanently attached to anything.


    I agree 100% with your post. Just being the devils advocate here. Does this mean all the people who have installed an intex type pool around the United states is out of code? I have read on this site and other sites these type of pools are excluded from NEC because they are classified as "portable".
    20X40 Ingound Hydra Pool
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Quote Originally Posted by richierich View Post
    Forgive my ignorance on this matter.... I have a 15 foot above ground pool and the pump/filter is plugged into a bubble cover GFCI outlet. What does bonding mean.... Am I doing something unsafe?
    Here is some bathroom reading when you have time

    https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/20...wimming-pools/
    20X40 Ingound Hydra Pool
    --Vinyl liner --Hayward 2HP Super Pump--Hayward S310T2 Sand Filter--2 Deck Jets--SR Smith Typhoon Slide--SR Smith 6' Diving Board--All 2 Inch Plumbing--8.6 ft deepend-- Self Installed

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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Ha I read some of that and could not follow at all.
    Location: Long Island, NY
    Gallons: 5000 Gallons
    Pool: 15' Saltwater 5000
    Filter: Pentair 1 HP Optiflow Pump w/ Clean & Clear 75Sq Ft Cartridge Filter
    SWG: Intex CS8110

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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Basically Intex created a pool that didn't fall under NEC definitions. That pool then gained a lot of popularity. The NEC has since changed its wording to include most Intex style designs. Themain point being that Intex pools are not temporary in most cases. As can be seen on this forum many people have Intex pools up for many years.

    In general NEC code only applies to new installs or major modifications requiering a permit.

    Does a proper bonding system make your pool safer? Absolutely.

    Do you have to install one now after the pool has been up for years and was never requiered by code when you built the pool? No.

    Most Intex pools with Intex equipment really can not be bonded properly. Intex pumps are double insulated and have no bonding fittings. The Intex pool frames are almost always made so that they can't be bonded properly.

    The trouble starts when you modify an Intex pool because you want it to be better and last longer. Again as seen on this forum many places people add pumps that aren't double insulated and other features that require bonding.

    Edit- mclifford I really like that link you posted it's a great explanation of why you need and how to properly bond a pool. I may just steal that link from you.
    Chuck-
    15x30 AG, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
    Aqua Comfort ACT750 heat pump / 6x20 ground mount solar panel / DIY automation

    Photos of 2016 Build, Inside Your Breaker Panel, Free Copy of 2017 NEC code
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    So would he need to chip up part of his concrete to bond it?
    If so, I know when I built my pool the contractor that poured my deck made sure all my rebar touched. Hopefully his contractor did the same?
    20X40 Ingound Hydra Pool
    --Vinyl liner --Hayward 2HP Super Pump--Hayward S310T2 Sand Filter--2 Deck Jets--SR Smith Typhoon Slide--SR Smith 6' Diving Board--All 2 Inch Plumbing--8.6 ft deepend-- Self Installed

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    CJadamec's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    Yes to bond the rebar he would have to chip away the concrete to expose the rebar and attach the bond wire to it.

    Yes making sure the rebar is tied together before the concrete is poured is also important to the bonding grid.
    Chuck-
    15x30 AG, Pentair Superflo VS, 19" sand filter, TF-100 test kit
    Aqua Comfort ACT750 heat pump / 6x20 ground mount solar panel / DIY automation

    Photos of 2016 Build, Inside Your Breaker Panel, Free Copy of 2017 NEC code
    TFP is AD Free and is funded solely by member support click here to help

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    Re: Bonding Intex Ultra Frame - some better than none?

    OK, so I spoke with our contractor. The slab for the pool is NOT part of the house foundation, just poured into place around the foundation. So, if I find a way to chip the concrete and bond the rebar, do I need to do anything about the house foundation? Again, I really appreciate all the help. This was supposed to be an easy set up pool and we just keep adding more. We wanted an in ground pool, but hit water 2ft down with our house footings, so that made an in ground pool prohibitively expensive (they wanted to install a pump system under the pool to keep groundwater out).

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