please help out a noob with cloudy water.

[highpeaks]

hello. i got my first spa a couple months ago and everything was great until i ran out of the chlorine that came with the spa(sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione dihydrate). we had some family coming to visit and i really wanted to use the spa so i went to the local hardware store and bought the only stuff they had(trichloro-s-triazinetrione) i mean its all the same right?
so now my water is foamy, cloudy and has a pretty bad odor to it. i'd love to just drain it and start over but the current temp here in Maine is well below freezing and will likely be that way for months to come. any help ya'll could provide me would be very much appreciated.

-tony

 

[Texas Splash]

Hi Tony and welcome to TFP! For your spa water, please make sure to review the TFP spa stick thread found HERE. Scroll down to the summary section if it gets overwhelming for you. Also, it will be extremely important for you to use one of the recommended test kits so that you can manage your water properly and provide us test results as required. We recommended either a TF-100 (link below) or Taylor K-2006C. Between those two items (spa sticky and test kit) you'll be on the road to recovery. Check it out and let us know if you still have questions. Nice to have you with us Tony.

 

[highpeaks]

i just ordered the Taylor kit on amazon and i will be reading that sticky tonight and tomorrow. thank you!

 

[jseyfert3]

I'll let you read the sticky first, but I can tell you now you'll have to drain that water. Using dichlor for several months as you did will cause a huge buildup of CYA (cyanuric acid). Triclor, which you bought at the hardware store, will as well and will cause your pH to plummet. Some CYA is good. Lots is bad, because it stops the chlorine from working, which is probably a big contributor to your cloudyness and smell.

Approximately 30 ppm of CYA is desired in a spa. To you give a rough idea of how much might have built up in your spa, I'll use my own numbers. I have a 290 gallon inflatable spa I got set up just before Christmas. I used dichlor at first for chlorine until I built up the CYA to 30 ppm. It took one week for the CYA to reach 30 ppm. Granted, it was our first hot tub and we were soaking as much as 3-4 hours a day some days, which will use more chlorine (and cause CYA to build up faster), but even with light use I can't see it taking much longer than two weeks to build up to around 30 ppm of CYA. With a couple months of dichlor use your CYA is probably through the roof.

What do you use to add chlorine without CYA? Plain unscented bleach, as you'll discover in the sticky previously linked. Follow that and let us know if you have any questions, or how it went once you've got it set up. I'm currently balancing my water for the second time right now, not because the water went bad (was sparkling clear) but because I needed to add insulation under my inflatable spa to keep my power bill somewhat reasonable!

 

[Arobbert]

You have some options. The first thing you need to know is what your current CYA level is. It needs to be less than 70. After you know the CYA level you can chlorinate to the appropriate level using this chart:
http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/128-chlorine-cya-chart-slam-shock

If it's too high you can replace a portion of the water to lower the CYA to a workable level of 30 to 50 (probably a good idea). This may be 50% or more to get the CYA to a workable level. The amount depends on your current CYA level. This may allow you to limp through the remainder of the winter. Please post your test results as soon as you can.

 

[jseyfert3]

Since it's a spa if the OP can drain half, he might as well drain 100%.

 

[Arobbert]

If it's an outdoor tub and he's in Maine he might not want to drain it completely considering the outdoor temps.

 

[highpeaks]

Thank you for all the responses and info. As of now I'm just waiting for the test kit to arrive. With the weather being below freezing every day for the foreseeable future, draining the tub is not an option.

 

[Dirk]

I was fascinated by reading another post here earlier today that suggested one could "exchange" water in a pool by carefully adding new water to the surface while draining water from the bottom. Something about inversion layers keeping the two from mixing enough to get "bad" water out and "good" water in, while never exposing the pool's surface.

Anybody know if that would work in a spa?

The post was talking about fresh water being added over saltier, calcium-rich water, but temperature can create inversion layers, too (I know that from scuba diving).

I think it could work, especially if the incoming water was warm, or at least warmer than the spa water. Maybe let the spa cool down, start a siphon hose that takes water from the bottom, then add warm water gently at the top, at the same rate it is being siphoned? The spa would never be without water in it.

You might be able to replace enough water to make a difference that way.

Just thinking out loud...

 

[highpeaks]

Dirk, My wife and I were actually just talking about how we could be draining and filling it at the same time. I could get in there with a 5 gallon bucket and have it pretty empty pretty quickly. It could simultaneously be filling with water from my spigot. I imagine it wouldn't be the most efficient system in the world but it would have to at least give a pretty strong dilution to the existing water. I just looked at the weather and we're actually forecasted to warm up to 38F on Saturday. I've kept the water temp in the spa up to 100F. the water going in would be significantly colder.
Am I sounding smarter or dumber than when I originally posted?

 

[Dirk]

Did you get your test kit yet? Between that and the geniuses here at TFP, you'd know how many gallons you need to swap out (by testing both the spa water and the fill water). You could also determine how long it would take to fill. So say you needed to swap 150 gallons. That's 30 buckets. You could time how long it takes to fill a 5-gallon bucket from your fill hose. Then you'd know how long it would take to fill 150 gallons from the hose. Could that be done in one day? Say it takes an hour to pull 30 buckets out. Could you fill it back up in time before the temp drops? If there was enough time, and temps cooperate, I'd pull all the water out first, then fill. Avoid mixing old and new that way, and that'll be more accurate than overlapping as you're suggesting.

But if it can't be done in a day, then hmmm. You could try the inversion trick I described. Or you could do X gallons a day (depending on your fill rate). It'll take longer, and use more water, but eventually you'll get to where you need to be.

Come to think of it, are we both over-thinking this?

I'm pretty sure I filled my 12K pool in about 10 hours. I used four hoses. Even if it took 24 hours (I know it was less than that), that'd be 500 gallons an hour. Got three or four hoses you could run into your spa? How long do you think it would take you to pull out 80 5-gallon buckets? Even at one a minute (that's pretty conservative), plus a few rest periods, that's 1.5-2 hours. Fill it back up in an hour (if your fill rate is close to mine). Not seeing the downside to getting this done in an afternoon, and if you empty it all before you fill, you'll be "starting fresh."

And you'll need it filled and running again fast, because you're going to need a good, long soak after pulling 400 gallons of water out of your spa in two hours!! (That's 1.67 tons of water!!)

Seriously, though. Am I missing something? Is it so cold there that having an empty spa, even for a couple hours, would cause it damage? I don't have any experience with that, so maybe someone else needs to chime in here before you attempt any of my hair-brained schemes...

- - - Updated - - -

'nother hair-brained idea. If the problem is draining a hot spa, and refilling with cold water, one of those fill hoses could be run from your water heater, mixing with one or more cold water fill hoses. That'd be warmish water for the fill...

 

[jseyfert3]

One of the first problems students in differential equations learn is called mixing. You can calculate the percentage of something in a solution after time x when filling with a solution of y concentration at z rate and draining at rate w. So you can totally (or I could brush off my math book) calculate mixing fill and drain water.

Of course that won't be efficient by any means, water wise. I think if you try the inversion layer trick you want to do it backwards. Since your tub is hot, and the fill will be cold, you'd want to drain off the top water and fill from below.

But this is all overcomplicating things. If you're getting to 38 °F, and talking about bailing water by bucket, just drain the whole thing right away so long as your back holds up and refill completely. Or buy a $50 submersible pump which could drain it in under an hour. I can't see taking more than 2-3 hours to fill unless you have some really slow water at your place (like a well). Do the 5 gallon bucket speed test Dirk mentioned, that will tell you how long filling will take.

 

[Dirk]

One of the first problems students in differential equations learn is called mixing. You can calculate the percentage of something in a solution after time x when filling with a solution of y concentration at z rate and draining at rate w. So you can totally (or I could brush off my math book) calculate mixing fill and drain water.

Of course that won't be efficient by any means, water wise. I think if you try the inversion layer trick you want to do it backwards. Since your tub is hot, and the fill will be cold, you'd want to drain off the top water and fill from below.

But this is all overcomplicating things. If you're getting to 38 °F, and talking about bailing water by bucket, just drain the whole thing right away so long as your back holds up and refill completely. Or buy a $50 submersible pump which could drain it in under an hour. I can't see taking more than 2-3 hours to fill unless you have some really slow water at your place (like a well). Do the 5 gallon bucket speed test Dirk mentioned, that will tell you how long filling will take.

Invert the inversion! Right. I was thinking he'd have to cool off his spa first, but your way makes more sense, and would be easier.

But I like plan B better, too. Just drain the whole thing in a couple hours or so, fill it in an hour or so. Test the fill rate ahead of time to make sure it'll fill fast enough. Done deal.

Being from CA, I wasn't sure what the issues were in the first place: why he has to worry about the air temp, and if doing this at 38° (or lower) is going to cause any kind of harm or damage to equipment or spa.

 

[Arobbert]

It's not fun doing this job if it's below zero.

If you get up to 38 I would just drain completely. You can use a siphon instead of a bucket.

If you can fill from a hot water source it will help speed things up. I do this and turn my tank up as high as it will go a couple hours in advance.

I don't believe anyone mentioned this. You should do a purge if you're refilling. Ahh-some is the preferred product. This will help reduce the likelihood of problems in the future.

 

[Dirk]

OK, we're getting a consensus. Just drain the thing and refill quick.

Regarding the hot water... is there a water softener involved if you use your water heater water? Not sure if you're supposed to fill a spa with soft water or not. Something to check on before you proceed... Who's got the skinny on that?

 

[jseyfert3]

If you have a water softener, your hot water will be softened.

 

[Arobbert]

If you have a water softener, your hot water will be softened.

Good point!

 

[Dirk]

If you have a water softener, your hot water will be softened.

Right, that's what I meant. Any downside to filling, at least in part, your spa with soft water?

 

[Jeff piper]

Why not put a plastic sheet over the tub, open the drain to let the old water out.and refill on top of the plastic until you get the water level correct . Old water out ,new water in then slice the plastic sheet out once filled. I had to do this once before to correct a water problem in freezing temps.

 

[Dirk]

So... highpeaks... how'd it go?