Strange yellow/orange color and FC Problem

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DVandy

DVandy

0
Jun 28, 2016
11
Grand Rapids, MI
I've been a TFP member for about a year and love what I've been able to learn. Unfortunately as a pool novice (purchased our home with the existing pool less than 2 years ago), I am running into a problem and not sure what to do. Any ideas would be appreciated.

I am having a terrible time getting my FC levels up to an acceptable range. I have used the pool calculator and twice added what was recommended, then checked a day later with very little change (at one point went from 0.1 FC to 0.3).

I've also noticed my entry steps turning a bit of a yellow/orange tint - the pool brush doesn't take it off. The rest of the pool seems fine and is very clear.

About 2 weeks ago I slowly started bring up the CYA level using a powder muriatic acid (added via a sock in the skimmer). The CYA was at 5 and has now come up significantly. I should also add that at opening I had to add a couple of feet worth of water which I also had to do last year when it was opened - as a result of draining down below the skimmer for winterization. We've also had A LOT of rain. My phosphate levels a couple weeks ago were at 1970 but I've now got that down to 0 (through 2 treatments of a phosphate remover).

I backwash once a week, have a new sand filter, and still use a 3" chlorinator system as well. Outside of the chlorine pucks for the chlorinator, this year I have also switched to the BBB method.

Here are my numbers as of this morning:

Water Temperature is 67

LaMotte SpinLab Mobile Test...
Free CL - 0.30
Total CL - 4.00
Combined CL - 3.70
PH - 7.9
Alkalinity - 131
Hardness - 99
CYA - 33
Copper - 0.0
Iron 0.0
Phosphate - 0

Thanks for any ideas.
 
Assuming we can trust your testing device-Your CCs are so high, and your FC so low that you are inviting problems with algae. Get some plain bleach in there pronto and consider performing a SLAM procedure with all those CCs. How does your water actually look??

Please say you meant to type cyanuric acid in the skimmer sock, not muriatic acid?

Why are you backwashing weekly? Does your pressure actually rise 20-25% in a week? Remember that a slightly dirty sand filter actually works better than one that is pristine clean.

Phosphates are *not* a problem in a TFP maintained pool. As long as a pool has the proper FC level based on its CYA level we don't give a fig about phosphates. They are just the scare card pool stores pull out to make a sale.

Your pH is bordering on too high. A little MA will bring that down.

Bring back any new questions that arise :)

Maddie :flower:
 
Thank you. I'll have to look up the SLAM procedure. Adding bleach again today. My water is actually crystal clear.

Thought it was powder muriatic acid but maybe not, purchased it from the pool store - kind of strange, the pail doesn't say what it is, just says "conditioner." It's a white granule. The pool store told me to slowly add a bit at a time using a sock in the skimmer - it took about 2 days for 1lb to dissolve when I did it.

Backwashing weekly (last couple of weeks) in getting a feel for my new sand filter which has a slightly different pressure than the old one - I also added 2 slightly smaller water return jets because they were more directional and could move more water deeper. My pressure keeps moving up from the new usual 11-12 to 14-15. Maybe in part due to the phosphate removal still being pretty recent?
 
Greetings neighbor!

My bet is the orange tint will be iron...are you on well? I live on Grand River and my well has 2 ppm iron.

So the easy stuff first:
1. Conditioner IS CYA.
2. What phosphate remover did you use, and how much? Since TFP methods usually don't involve phosphate removal (generally not necessary if you keep your Free Chlorine to TFP specs, which are here: [fc/cya][/FC/cya] ) not a lot of folks will have direct experience, but after I did an experimental high volume treatment last year I had a spot of trouble getting the FC back up. So that may be at work.
3. Why are you using pucks...it makes it harder to know your cya and maintain the TFP specs? More importantly, how did your cya get so low over winter if you were using pucks? Did you have a FC reading on opening?

You may not need to SLAM Process if you can just get the water to hold FC. With metals, its best to avoid slamming if possible. The chlorine oxidizes the iron, hence the staining.

So first, just add pure unscented liquid bleach or chlorine and test to see that its holding somewhat (see modified instructions below.)

Once that's good to go, and you've confirmed metal via vitamin C, you'll want to add either Metal Magic sequestrant or Jacks Magic. Either can be ordered from http://www.poolgeek.com and delivered the next day - they're in Michigan. Before Pools Plus bought out the Pool Place on Fuller, you could also get it there, but IMHO now they pedal bioguard heavily.

Here's the "test" to see if you can get the FC to hold...doesn't matter what's fighting the chlorine, this test should break it down, though its normally used for ammonia and normally in front of a slam - but in this case don't proceed with a slam yet. I've modified the instruction to just take you to 10 ppm - a bit below a slam level since you've added cya.

What I'm trying to do here is to get your FC to hold nicely without necessarily oxidizing more iron or exacerbating staining.

First, get your ph down to 7.2 so that this all works better. That will also help control the staining.
Then:

Diagnosing:

1. With pump running, dose FC to 10 ppm, then retest FC after 10 minutes. If FC level drops by more than 50%, then proceed with treatment below.

Treatment:
1. Dose FC up to 10 ppm level. Do not add additional CYA at this point.
2. Retest FC at 10-minute intervals.
a. If FC loss is greater than 50%, add FC to bring back up to level and continue retesting FC @ 10-minute intervals.
b. IF FC loss is 50% or less, add FC to bring back up to level. Go to Step 3.

3. In your case, step 3 would be to simply maintain for the day at about 10 ppm, deliberately a bit lower than a slam, then do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to confirm you don't really need to slam.

Now, circle back to staining...if sequestrant alone doesn't nail the steps, I have a tip instead of a full stain treatment. But lets get phase 1 under our belts first ;)
 
DV,

Are you running the test yourself or are you having this done at the pool store? The reason I ask is test device you reference is very expensive and very high quality if maintained properly. It's used by pool stores to sell "solutions" to problems that you don't really have. Classic example is phosphates. They're not harmful if you don't have algae problems that can't be solved with chlorine treatment. So if you were sold expensive phosphate remover when you had no algae it makes your pool store a little suspect. Also, like all high quality lab equipment it must be maintained properly and many pool stores just don't do this. If you're not testing yourself we strongly recommend you start doing it yourself. It's very easy to get highly accurate test results that don't require a $1000+ test device. This way you get test results in a non-conflicted way and it's practical to test very frequently when needed.

Muriatic acid is liquid. It is actually 31.45% solution of hydrochloric acid and is used to reduce pH. The powder you added is granular cyanuric acid and is used to increase your CYA level. It dissolves slowly which is why you put it in a sock to dissolve. Your chlorine pucks are roughly 50% cyanuric acid if you are using trichlor pucks. So if you are close to your desired level you can fine tune CYA by using trichlor pucks. When you get up to 50 ppm CYA you should add liquid bleach to maintain your FC level. After that only use the pucks when you are out of town for extended periods. If you keep using pucks your CYA level will get too high. The pool calculator will show you how much your CYA level increases with each puck consumed.

If your FC level is low and does not increase to predicted levels as shown in the pool calculator then your CL is being consumed by organic matter (like algae or decomposition products of algae such as amino acids and ammonia) or inorganic compounds. Either way you need to consume them by depleting them with chlorine or reducing their concentration by replacing some of the water. Slamming will do this most of the time very effectively. It requires frequent FC testing and you have to be able to test for this yourself. The calculations in the pool calculator are based on the size of your pool and can't account for the amount that may be immediately consumed by organic and inorganic material in your pool. So if you don't reach the calculated level you need to add more chlorine until it gets to your SLAM FC level. Then you need to test very frequently to be sure your SLAM level is sustained throughout the SLAM. The machine you're referencing uses disks that cost $.50 each so it's not very practical for slamming... get the test kit recommended here for highly accurate, much cheaper testing.

Good luck and I hope this is helpful.

Chris

- - - Updated - - -

DV,

Looks like Swampwoman replied while I was typing mine. You're now in the good hands of a TFP Expert. I'll now drop off this discussion so there won't be any confusion.

Good luck!

Chris
 
Thanks for the help. The SpinLab is my own (was able to get a great deal on it and I haven't enjoyed dealing with liquid chemicals, plus I'm a sucker for the tech that sends the records to my phone for free).

I'll go back to using my Taylor kit for testing multiple times within the day (while occasionally comparing to the LaMotte SpinLab results).
 
Swampwoman said:
Greetings neighbor!

My bet is the orange tint will be iron...are you on well? I live on Grand River and my well has 2 ppm iron.

So the easy stuff first:
1. Conditioner IS CYA.
2. What phosphate remover did you use, and how much? Since TFP methods usually don't involve phosphate removal (generally not necessary if you keep your Free Chlorine to TFP specs, which are here: [fc/cya][/fc/cya] ) not a lot of folks will have direct experience, but after I did an experimental high volume treatment last year I had a spot of trouble getting the FC back up. So that may be at work.
3. Why are you using pucks...it makes it harder to know your cya and maintain the TFP specs? More importantly, how did your cya get so low over winter if you were using pucks? Did you have a FC reading on opening?

You may not need to SLAM Process if you can just get the water to hold FC. With metals, its best to avoid slamming if possible. The chlorine oxidizes the iron, hence the staining.

So first, just add pure unscented liquid bleach or chlorine and test to see that its holding somewhat (see modified instructions below.)

Once that's good to go, and you've confirmed metal via vitamin C, you'll want to add either Metal Magic sequestrant or Jacks Magic. Either can be ordered from http://www.poolgeek.com and delivered the next day - they're in Michigan. Before Pools Plus bought out the Pool Place on Fuller, you could also get it there, but IMHO now they pedal bioguard heavily.

Here's the "test" to see if you can get the FC to hold...doesn't matter what's fighting the chlorine, this test should break it down, though its normally used for ammonia and normally in front of a slam - but in this case don't proceed with a slam yet. I've modified the instruction to just take you to 10 ppm - a bit below a slam level since you've added cya.

What I'm trying to do here is to get your FC to hold nicely without necessarily oxidizing more iron or exacerbating staining.

First, get your ph down to 7.2 so that this all works better. That will also help control the staining.
Then:

Diagnosing:

1. With pump running, dose FC to 10 ppm, then retest FC after 10 minutes. If FC level drops by more than 50%, then proceed with treatment below.

Treatment:
1. Dose FC up to 10 ppm level. Do not add additional CYA at this point.
2. Retest FC at 10-minute intervals.
a. If FC loss is greater than 50%, add FC to bring back up to level and continue retesting FC @ 10-minute intervals.
b. IF FC loss is 50% or less, add FC to bring back up to level. Go to Step 3.

3. In your case, step 3 would be to simply maintain for the day at about 10 ppm, deliberately a bit lower than a slam, then do an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to confirm you don't really need to slam.

Now, circle back to staining...if sequestrant alone doesn't nail the steps, I have a tip instead of a full stain treatment. But lets get phase 1 under our belts first ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks for this help!

I live just inside city limits, so I do have city water. Just looked on the pail again for the powder I put in through the sock in the skimmer, it does say cyanuric acid in small print - can't remember the name of the company but it's local (maybe Haviland?) that I think supplies to Pool Plus.

I used about 2 liters of Natural Chemistry Phos Free Commercial. Last year I had a mustard algae problem when a friend of mine turned me on to it. After getting the algae under control, I guess the phos free gave me a little peace of mind.

Not sure why my CYA got so low? Last year I couldn't get it to drop below 85, even after multiple partial water-replacements. I've only used the pucks because the auto-chlorinator is there and sometimes we're gone for a couple days in a row. The chlorinator is set a super low feed, at 1.5. Did not have a FC reading at open, but I'm guessing it was near zero, though I can't certain. I added 2 gallons of 10% liquid chlorine at open and then began to check it a couple days later.

I tried using the vitamin C and it immediately removed the staining. Isn't that strange though, seeing my SpinLab showed 0 Iron and 0 Copper?

This afternoon (before I saw your reply) I added 6 gallons of 10% liquid chlorine because a local pool store told me that may be enough to bring the FC number up. I just tested and my TC was at 13 and FC was at 10. Unfortunately I think I may have created a worse staining problem (as you mentioned I might). Now, only a couple hours after trying the vitamin C, the pool step I used it on is already becoming orange again...YIKES!

I'll order the sequestrant stat!
 

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I'm likely too late with this response because its 12:30 am now but I'd filter 24/7 til all is resolved.

I think your cya may have converted to ammonia, which is a weird thing that Allen's now and then overwinter if FC zeros out...but if you got to 10 FC last time you dosed, you're ahead of it regardless.
 
Swampwoman said:
I'm likely too late with this response because its 12:30 am now but I'd filter 24/7 til all is resolved.

I think your cya may have converted to ammonia, which is a weird thing that Allen's now and then overwinter if FC zeros out...but if you got to 10 FC last time you dosed, you're ahead of it regardless.
Click to expand...

Just saw the reply, thank you again. I had turned it back on overnight and it ran through today, but is now off. The pump will be on again all day tomorrow.

How do I tell if the CYA became ammonia?

I am out of town until early evening tomorrow, but I did another test using my LaMotte SpinTouch at 9:30 last night (Saturday). Here were the numbers:

Free CL = 7.61
Total CL = 7.88
Combined CL = 0.27
PH = 7.5
Alkalinity = 125
Hardness = 95
CYA = 31
Copper = 0.0
Iron = 0.0
Phosphate = 0

I'll test again early evening Monday, when I return home.
 
How do I tell if the CYA became ammonia?
Click to expand...

The signs that it might have occurred are a) when a large amount if cya disappears over winter and b) when someone opens to zero FC (yours was .1) and c) then the water won't "hold" FC, eg "can't get chlorine level up."

But since you're now able to hold FC, if you had it, you likely oxidized it. You can get cheap test strips from the pet store to test next year if you open to dramatically lower cya again, but whether you test for it or not, the quick additions of chlorine will ultimately xidized it ;)

When you're back home, specifically do the Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to be sure you don't need to slam, and if confirmed, then add sequestrant and see if the sequestrant itself clears the orange.
 
Swampwoman said:
The signs that it might have occurred are a) when a large amount if cya disappears over winter and b) when someone opens to zero FC (yours was .1) and c) then the water won't "hold" FC, eg "can't get chlorine level up."

But since you're now able to hold FC, if you had it, you likely oxidized it. You can get cheap test strips from the pet store to test next year if you open to dramatically lower cya again, but whether you test for it or not, the quick additions of chlorine will ultimately xidized it ;)

When you're back home, specifically do the Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to be sure you don't need to slam, and if confirmed, then add sequestrant and see if the sequestrant itself clears the orange.
Click to expand...

Thank you again.

Hopefully it was safe to swim in the ammonia, my kids had been in the pool a few times. :(

I will do the OCLT and see. Thanks.
 
When I returned home this evening I tested the water, here were the results...

(LaMotte SpinTouch time stamp) At 6:53pm Monday:

Free CL = 0.52
Total CL = 0.67
Combined CL = 0.14
PH = 7.5
Alkalinity = 125
Hardness = 97
CYA = 32
Copper = 0.0
Iron = 0.1
Phosphate = 0

Then I added 1 gallon of 10% Liquid Chlorine and tested shortly after, these were the results...

At 7:12pm Monday:

Free CL = 5.72
Total CL = 6.13
Combined CL = 0.41
PH = 7.5
Alkalinity = 127
Hardness = 96
CYA = 34
Copper = 0.0
Iron = 0.1
Phosphate = 0

A little while later I did my final evening test, these were those results:

At 7:42pm Monday:

Free CL = 5.69
Total CL = 5.69
Combined CL = 0.00
PH = 7.6
Alkalinity = 128
Hardness = 95
CYA = 32
Copper = 0.0
Iron = 0.1
Phonsphate = 0

I'm leaving my pump run overnight and will test first thing in the morning (OCLT).
 
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