I am crying. Pool leaks and Filtration problems.

[tangoshoes]

My husband and I just bought our first home 5 months ago. We stretched our budget like we knew we shouldn't do to buy the house of our dreams. Little did we know we were buying a money pit. I'm going to keep the story short but it was unlike any other home buying I have ever heard of. Basically the seller trashed the house before leaving. It wasn't on purpose so the signs weren't obvious to us upon moving in and 4 months had passed since the home inspection. Basically the seller had a very bad drug and alcohol addiction. She had inherited the house so didn't know anything about it and it was previously unattended for 8 months. We have already had to replace every major system in the house. Except the electric which is next because we have serious problem already.

My husband keeps telling me "It's going to be alright, just wait till you can open your pool in the summer." and I'm thinking "Yep opening the pool sounds like opening problems". But I smile and try to calm my nerves as the credit card bills roll in. My husband is an awesome man but he is a computer tech and that is it. I have a small online embroidery business which has been stagnant since we started this venture because we can't afford experts to come in and do work it's me doing it... everyday kitchen remodel, furnace repairs, lawn mower repairs, pipe fixes, and now pool maintenance person. And now I'm starting to cry... *sigh* so I knew nothing about pools but I made sure to have the seller provide proof of winterization on the pool and so I started this spring with a cover on a swamp that was a swamp.

I pumped all the water off using a hose and gravity and took it off. I started blasting the leaves at the bottom with a Leaf Master. I figured that would help me fill and clean at the same time. I did that for 3 days for an hour each day and started to fill. I put all the plugs into the pump and sand filter. I filled to 1/3 the skimmer to start. I removed the plugs in returns and skimmer and popped in the basket. I switched the sand filter to filtration from winter. I started up the pump and prayed. It started... slowly and then water.... water leaking from the joint on the pump which goes to the filter and leaking from an elbow from the filter to to the return jets. I did my best to patch and repair but nothing has worked. The pipe to the return jets needs to be replaced. Ok so I think I can do that. I created a custom sink for our kitchen with a bath tub fixture and a wash tub basin... I think I can handle a little PVC but the elbow piece on the pump to the filter seems like it has busted threads on the female side.... I looked up our pump to see if that was something that could be replaced. Pump was made prior to 1991... ok parts are now more expensive than a new pump if not close to... so I order us a pump and a new elbow and new pvc... I'm pretty sure my sand filter is leaking from the plug as well but I haven't even gotten to that nor the pressure gauge that consistently reads 0... but is it because all the air in the lines? I dunno *more crying*.

So yesterday I had the water level up to 1/3 the skimmer... today it's back below the skimmer. I don't know what to do... I am in way over my head now and there seems to be so many problems.... Oh did I mention that my equipment is in a pool house and I have no idea how I can drain the sand filter now without getting water everywhere!

I'm sure there is more information I missed but I really just need someone to help me understand if I'm taking the right steps and what I can do about the water loss... or any explanation of the water loss. It was not evaporation. I was out testing the pump after the pipe repairs at 11pm last night and I checked it at 8am this morning to see the water loss. I'm guessing its the skimmer. I've got pictures but I can't seem to get them uploaded from my phone this morning. I'll try later. Right now I'm going back to bed to cry until I can get my big girl pants on for the day and start working on the other numerous repairs. I hate to sound like such a baby but you just have no idea... the movie "the money pit" or even "funny farm" has not come close to our experience. Yesterday I found a stash of used needles in our basement and a dead mouse in the nonfunctional stove vent. I'm waiting for a body to float to the top of the pool... I don't think me or my husband would be surprised in the slightest.

Here is what I know about the pool.
Sand filter Hayward Vari-Flo XL Valve
The new pump on order: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ESOQGM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
25kish gallons
vinyl in ground
It has an in line chlorinator as well but I may remove it. I think they did a poor install job hence the leaks on the elbow to the return system.
It's a swamp at the moment.

 

[mburn16]

From one relative newbie to another, and from experience opening my own pool that had a leak in the skimmer line this year, yes, air in the line can cause the gauge to read "0". Open the bleeder valve and see if air or water comes out, and if air, see if it changes to water and if the gauge responds. The alternative is that the gauge itself is simply bad. Winters in our state can, apparently, do that if it was left exposed to the cold. Fortunately from what I have seen around here since I joined, I don't think new gauges run much money at all.

Isolating the source of falling water levels is probably something we'll need one of the more experienced visitors here to confirm, but does it lose water even with the equipment not running?

 

[drharris]

Other experts are better at this sort of stuff than I am, but I'll attempt get you started. I know it has to be heartbreaking; but the love you're putting into that house will make it good eventually... it's just hard to get through this initial year with all those problems! At least with the pool, TFP methods will save you lots of money over time! If you're going TFP methods you can indeed remove that chlorinator if it helps the plumbing, as you'll be using bleach from here out.

Drain plug on filter... you should be able to use some teflon tape on the plug itself that will keep it from dripping. If you don't want water to drain into the poolhouse while replacing the plug, use a shallow bin below the drain, but have a long garden hose ready with the other end somewhere downhill of the opening. Cleaning your filter would be another story, but hopefully you won't have to do that. Is there a floor drain nearby the equipment? Keep a shop vac nearby and it will be useful for any mishaps while working with the equipment.

The pool leak... first eliminate the equipment outside the pool. Does the water level go down with the pump not running at all? Another strategy is to let the water level go down, but see at what point it stops going down. If you can remember where the water level was when you opened it, maybe see if there is something at that level for water to leak through? (returns, skimmer, steps, seam in liner, etc.) That helps give a strategy for how to solve the problem.

If it keeps disappearing below the skimmer, the skimmer cover (inside the pool) is removable, and sometimes leaks in that area will be a bit obvious and can be fixed with either some sort of gasket or a repair putty. Vinyl liners usually have a skimmer with these paper-like gaskets on either side of the liner, then the skimmer front plate will screw into the wall, compressing those gaskets. If you replace the gaskets and that front plate, that should be enough. If it's not that, then you can get at pool stores something like underwater putty. Possibly at a big box or hardware store too, not sure. It cures in an hour or so, and fixes the kind of issues you open it up and can see for yourself where the water must be going.

Finally, read through pool school here, and learn how to use Pool Math. I would purchase a decent test kit; it seems like a lot of money up-front but is worth it in the long run, and will be cheaper than what your pool store will recommend to fix this problem. It will be hard to fix your swamp with the leak, but it will also be hard to fix the leak without being able to clearly see things underwater. Hopefully you can fish out all the crud with leaf rake/nets until your pump arrives. Then if you can handle constant water replacement, I'd start the SLAM process, get the water clear enough to fix that leak, fix it, and then finish up to get a nice sparkling pool to relax from your fledgling career as a home renovator!

Along the way please post here, and pictures always help. People here are super helpful and we'll try our best to get your pool in shape!

 

[rolo918]

Hello and welcome to the forum

Let me tell you from one person to another all here to help and let's tackle one problem at a time

pictures tell 1000 words so take as many pictures you can provide us

Chris

 

[SandyO]

I'll get better. This is the place to land! I was in almost your exact same position two years ago and this place really got my pool to be the best part of our new house. The first night we opened the pool I just sat there and cried at the horrible black swamp. After I found the tools shoved into the pipes which were blocking the water flow I didn't get surprised at much else.

My equipment is also in a pool house (well, an old, rotting shed) so I deal with not wanting to get water all over the floor also. And I have a few leaks around my pump. Most of the time I just keep stuff off the floor and let some water just get on the ground. But when you want to drain it you'll need a small bucket or pan under the plug to catch the water before you get a hose on it.

You've got this.

 

[tangoshoes]

Ok so yesterday I had to take a day off. I was just getting too stressed about this pool lol. Today my new pump should be here so I can start thinking about getting some of these leaks fixed up. The day off did show me something interesting though. I am guessing that if my skimmer line does leak there must be another leak somewhere else in the pool. So day 1 I had it filled up to the second screw on the skimmer. Day two it was just below the skimmer. This photo is where it is at now. It seems to be stabilizing right here. So there must be a rip in the liner I'm guessing as it is stabilizing over the return jets. Also ... its been rainy and overcast here for the last 4 days so evaporation is unlikely causing such a drastic change in water level.

So I bit the bullet after a crying session with my Mom and went to the pool store. I only did so because they did not ... could not... send someone out. The man over the phone didn't try to sell me anything and actually after an hour discussion didn't ask me to even buy anything! Even when I was in the store they didn't ask me to buy. I took up almost two hours of his time so I did buy a few gallons of chlorine because I was grateful for his time and reassuring me. Now I have about 20 gallons of chlorine sitting here ready for a week of shock but no working pool lol!

The pool guy told me that if my skimmer was leaking I could simply run the pool from the main drain. He thinks they installed my pool when I showed him the pictures he showed me how the main drain valve should work... as of right now it's partially or mostly off. The main drain is the red handle you can see most of. The pool man said I need to loosen the ring first before I can turn the knob... well that's basically impossible. I've tried everything including calling in the 6'3 roommate to try his hand at it. We took a flat head and hammer to it with no luck. The handle wont turn nor will the ring I'm thinking maybe a strap wrench? Since I'm replacing the pump I was thinking maybe I could replace both the valves too as they both stick and make sure they are properly maintained but I'm not sure it's necessary. Also if I don't use the skimmer can I keep the pool at the lower level until I get the water cleaned up to save on chemicals and once I get it clear I can use dye to help track down my leaks?

Thank you for the reassurance everyone! I'm ready to tackle this pool like a warrior of muck now! Clear blue water shall be mine!

 

[drharris]

The downside of using the main drain is that you could starve your pump if there's a lot of crud at the bottom. Just be really careful to get as much stuff out as you can first. You can do this without your skimmer, but be aware that things like vacuuming will be more difficult. Another option would be to get the connection between pump and skimmer primed well, and use a vacuum hose attached to a vacuum sitting at the bottom all the time. This allows you to use your skimmer without the water level being that high, and give more opportunities for water to flow to the pump. Just pay close attention to everything.

It looks like the valves have unions and would be an easy enough replacement. I'd probably do it, but you can probably get yours to come free with some work. I have one valve that needs water moving through it to get it to move at all, so maybe that's the issue? Doesn't make a lot of sense, but eventually I'll replace them with something better. You could get fancy and replace both of those with a single Jandy 3-way that will last a lot longer than these ball valves.

That's a lot of leaking, but at least you know there's a problem ahead of time. Just keep a close eye on the water level; there needs to be at least a foot of water in all parts of the pool to keep that liner from buckling out. Unfortunately you'll need clear water to figure out the cause, but you're on your way to that. Good luck!

 

[mburn16]

“ So there must be a rip in the liner I'm guessing as it is stabilizing over the return jet”

Try plugging the return jets back up and refill. If water continues to drop, your leak is in the liner, possibly where the jets come into the pool? If water doesn’t drop with the returns plugged, it sounds more like a plumbing issue.

Doesn't sound to me like the skimmer has anything to do with it.

 

[tangoshoes]

Doesn't sound to me like the skimmer has anything to do with it.

The reason I think the skimmer leaks is because the first day I had it filled up to the skimmer's second screw from the bottom. That was at 11pm at night. I went back out to check at 8am and the entire skimmer has emptied. Even the line was dry when I reached down to check the tubing inside the skimmer. The pool guy seemed to think I may have created a vacuum though and that possibly the water went out the backwash. My backwash is hard plumed out the side of the pool house so I wouldn't have known if that was the case. I don't know that much about plumbing to know how that would happen. I would guess that would be more likely with an above ground pool but I'm just not sure Think I'll plug returns and skimmer and fill to see what kind of loss I get with that. Just so much to check and do! lol

- - - Updated - - -

The downside of using the main drain is that you could starve your pump if there's a lot of crud at the bottom. Just be really careful to get as much stuff out as you can first. You can do this without your skimmer, but be aware that things like vacuuming will be more difficult.

I bought a leaf master to kill two birds with one stone... fill and Vacuum. The difficult thing is I'm not sure where the main drain actually is. I think I'll go back to probing before attempting this... will need to replace or fix the valve before that anyways. If I remove these valves they shouldn't leak if the tube end is above the water line correct? The last thing I want to do is drain the pool into my pool house lol! Thanks so much for the info... good idea about the using the vaccume to help get more water to the pump without filling the pool more! I have a feeling a good running pump will create some good suction even if there is a hole in the skimmer line underground.

 

[Scout101]

If the skimmer was the leak, the water level would be higher. The water got lower than the skimmer and still leaked a bit more, so wherever the water is leaking from, it should be "just" above the stabilized water line...

Looks like the water got a few inches lower than the skimmer before stopping, so unlikely that it's the problem, or at least not the only one.

 

[Numb]

Agreed, I had skimmer leaks for years due to my own negligence. Arizona sun + lack of pool maintenance resulted in cracks in the skimmer basket. Water level would rapidly drop and that skimmer would be dry, however once it got to the bottom edge of the skimmer things slowed considerably. With the amount yours has dropped I'd think there is a leak somewhere else...or perhaps...not to be negative...both.

Friend of mine taught me an easy way to check this a long time ago. You have to have a general idea of the area you want to test for this to work. Get the water level above where you think the leak is. Get a syringe and fill it with water colored with red food coloring. Turn off the pump and wait for the water to be completely still, then very gently poke the syringe through the surface of the water and disperse a small amount of the colored water. You will be able to watch the flow of the red dye towards a leak if it exists, it will trail off to the leak pretty obviously. If you don't see that, odds are your leak is somewhere else. There may be more effective ways or other TFP recommended ways of doing this, but this is what I was taught.

Good news is, A+B putty can patch up a small crack pretty effectively.

 

[zea3]

Hi, welcome to TFP! Try filling the pool to just above the returns and then plug the returns and let it sit overnight. If it does not lose water then you can unplug the return and use food coloring or leak detector dye to see if you can identify the leak. Watch for the color to be sucked in at the point of the leak. I notice you have steps sitting out on the deck. Are those your pool steps and does the pool also have built in steps? That is another place to use dye to check for leaks. If you have a pool light you can check around it too.

 

[needsajet]

Welcome. Wow, you're getting great support from TFPers above.

Many of us are here and watching and feeling your pain, aRGHhh, what a bummer.

I agree with your helpers above, one step at a time, but I noticed your pump link is to a 1/2 HP pump. I'd spend the extra $39 (maybe extra shipping) to get the 1 HP.

Is your underground piping a hard(ish) black plastic? commonly known as poly pipe?

Great job rolling up your sleeves in the face of the green monster you'll be slaying!

 

[mburn16]

"Try filling the pool to just above the returns and then plug the returns and let it sit overnight. If it does not lose water then you can unplug the return and use food coloring or leak detector dye to see if you can identify the leak"

If you plug the returns and the leak stops, the problem is in the plumbing behind the return jets, and a dye test isn't likely to help.

 

[tangoshoes]

Thank you everyone for chiming in with advice. I am taking everything in and proceeding slowly... Here is what I did... I filled the pool with skimmer and return jets blocked. I had no water loss so it's in the skimmer or the return jet lines. I blocked the skimmer from inside at pluming so the basket and connections do hold water. I was able to get the ring on the ball valves to loosen with a strap wrench... HIGHLY RECOMMENDED! I've never used one but I have like 100 things to use one on now! lol I opened up the main drain and removed plugs from pool. The pool guy said that under pressure the pipes might hold better even if there is a leak. I decided to start the SLAM even though there may be a leak. Forget drug peer pressure. The peer pressure to open the pool at your new house from friends and family is far grater!

I calculated out a shock of FC 10 by checking the chart. Much of my water is new water having filled and refilled (never from empty just below the return jets) twice now so my CYA was bellow 30. I will add conditioner as soon as possible. My level of FC was 0 when I started. I used a calc to figure out adding 3gallons of 6% would get me to 10. I added the bleach. I came back 2 hours later. They FC then read at 5. I decided to do another 3 gallons at this point because it was 3am and I wanted to go to bed lol. I added the chemicals and came back at 4am to get a FC reading of 15. So I went to bed woke up and checked this morning. I lost roughly an inch and a half water overnight *sigh*. The FC 8 hours later was 2. Ouch! So the surface looked relatively good so in order to identify the leak I decided to shut the skimmer valve off and run off main drain. The main drain is really sucking water good. I must have gotten enough leaves off it. I also plugged the skimmer with a plug in the basket area. So with a loss of 13 FC over 8 hours I decided to jack the target to 23 in order to keep it above 10 while I work on other parts of the house. I'll go back and check it in 4 hours to see where I'm at. I dumped in 6gallons of 6% per what calc said. The pool is actually going from green to blue. I also turned on the water to try and fill it some more. Once it fills to my mark. I'm going to shut the water off and check water loss with skimmer plugged and pressure in the return pipes. As many have already guessed it appears I do have another leak along with possibly the skimmer. I also put a bucket up to my backwash pluming to see if any water is getting out that way. Curiously I went to check it today and the pavement looks bleached around the hard plumed line... I don't remember it looking like that yesterday when I did a backwash before turning on the pump. But there was no water coming out. The pool guy seemed to think I might be losing water this way. I'm just not sure how that would happen with the filter on filtration but I don't know much about it.

Here's a new questions... Can I run off one return in order to diagnose the leak?

Thanks for all the help guys n gals! It is much appreciated. I didn't sleep that well last night but I'm excited to see the water changing from green to blue!

 

[tangoshoes]

Return jet leak in inground pool behind fitting

Diagnosing several pool problems at a new home. New pool owner as well. So far it seems that when skimmer pipe is closed, and return jets plugged the pool holds water. Once pump is in operation and the plugs removed the pool looses several inches water a day. Closing skimmer seems to slow leak running off the main drain only. Loosing about 1/4 every 2 hours with just return jets going. There is a lot of air in my return jets. One has little bubbles the other has huge bubbles that come up right next to the side of the pool. Floating leaves and such seems to circle back around to this area. I'm thinking that the leak is somewhere beyond this return jet. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume I have a skimmer leak too but I can deal with that later. My question is... with the water above the return jets can I remove the fitting and pop in a ball valve to close off the offending return jet, then plug from the inside of the pool and run with just 1 return jet? Also is there a good way to tell which pipe goes to which jet? Thanks so much!

 

[tangoshoes]

Holding FC above 10 still and working on leak detection. I thought the water is finally clear enough to use dye. I turned off pump and dropped a few drops in front of both returns and skimmer. Seems to be one return jet that's the culprit. I plugged it up and kept the filter off for the next hour to see if that helps. If that is the case I'm thinking of closing off that return pipe at the filter. Not sure if I should use a cap... or valve... or re plumb so that it only leads to one return. Is this a bad idea?

 

[needsajet]

Running off one return will work for diagnosing the problem. For running off one return long term you could get an eyeball with a larger opening. If the return is slip fit, it might pop out into the pool and you'd need to fetch it with your scoop or leaf rake. If it's threaded it should be fine.

It will help if you can enter a 'signature' with your pool information. Follow the link in my signature to find the instructions in 'read before posting' and be sure to include which test kit you have.

Shopping for a higher % chlorine will save you a fair bit of work and maybe a few dollars as well. PoolMath can be adjusted for up to 12.5% FC chlorinating liquid.

Good luck with your sleuthing

 

[zea3]

Can you post a picture of your equipment pad, so we can see the path the pipes take once they exit and re-enter the ground?

 

[tangoshoes]

Running off one return will work for diagnosing the problem. For running off one return long term you could get an eyeball with a larger opening. If the return is slip fit, it might pop out into the pool and you'd need to fetch it with your scoop or leaf rake. If it's threaded it should be fine.

It will help if you can enter a 'signature' with your pool information. Follow the link in my signature to find the instructions in 'read before posting' and be sure to include which test kit you have.

Shopping for a higher % chlorine will save you a fair bit of work and maybe a few dollars as well. PoolMath can be adjusted for up to 12.5% FC chlorinating liquid.

Good luck with your sleuthing

Ok I think I got everything in the sig... Thanks for pointing me to the directions on that : ) If I use a plug on one of the returns and the filter on that won't stop the leak as it will just be pushing water through the hole? I would need to cap off at the filter to avoid the line or fitting that has the leak? What about plugging the return inside the pool... getting some fix a leak... pouring it down the return jet line and flushing with water until it backs up or cures? Sorry I'm just thinking of anything at this point. My pool doesn't currently have eyeballs should I get some? I have threaded connectors inside the returns.