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Thread: Spa Blower issues

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    Spa Blower issues

    On Friday evening while we were enjoying the spa the blower motor died. This is the second occurrence of the motor dying. It's death, is unfortunately, rather predictable. We use the spa and the blower for less than 30 minutes (as required by the vendor) so that the blower can cool down. In both cases the blower died after five uses of the spa. The pool builder replaced the blower the first time saying it was defective, I'm having serious doubts about that now.

    Here's what I know, if you need more information please ask.

    • Blower is over 85' from the pool
    • Estimate 5 X 90 degree bends (sweep 90)
    • Estimage 2 X 45 degree bends
    • No check valves between the blower and the spa
    • 2" pipe
    • Depth of jets is 11"
    • No Hartford loop
    • Polaris 2 HP blower
    • 6 WaterWay jets in the spa
    • pipes around spa are under fiber reinforced concrete and travertine


    I downloaded the manual for the blower and the instructions say for a run over 25' to have a Hartford loop and a check valve. The pool builder did neither. In order to get to the pipes, they will either have to dig under the concrete slab (while the slab is fiber reinforced I cannot imagine that digging under it will help the structural integrity) or they will have to cut through the concrete slab (which defeats the purpose of using the fiber in the first place to ensure one continuous and strong slab). If they dig under the concrete, I'm guessing they could use piers or something to keep the integrity, not sure. Also, they would have to run an additional 24 ft of pipe to extend the pipe to a place where we can put the Hartford loop and the check valve.

    I am losing serious sleep over this. So I ask the following:

    • Is there a blower besides the polaris that can handle a long pipe with water in it? I saw that the waterway Santana II may have better heat dissipation.
    • Any alternatives besides going under the concrete or cutting through the concrete?


    Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    First, 2" pipe is much too small for that length of air pipe and likely one of the issues. Are you actually getting bubbles out of the jets?

    How far is the edge of the concrete from the spa. You could put a Hartford loop there but it might need to stick out of the ground. If possible, increasing the pipe size at that point back to the blower could also help.

    But having said that, a blower should not over heat like that unless the air flow is very severely restricted. Is the pitch of the blower really high (sounds like a plugged vacuum cleaner)?

    Can you run the blower off the air pipe indefinitely without it overheating?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    we do get some bubbles out of the jets, probably not as much as we would like. edge of the concrete is 18' from the spa edge (where the pipes go through), there is a cove where we could put the Hartford loop. We could run a larger pipe from the Hartford loop to the spa. Unfortunately, the blower is dead and I never got to hear it (it's on the other side of the garage).

    what size pipe should we have from the Hartford valve to the spa?

    Also, they might be able to put the blower on the side of the house along with a Hartford loop. It would be much closer. We would have to talk to the city because there is a drainage easement on that side of the yard. If it's just air they may allow us to proceed. PB would have to run power to that side of the yard. If the city will let us use the side yard this might be the best option. They could also do bigger pipes.

    Still they would have to dig.

    Thanks
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    I am a bit confused. Is the entire pipe run under concrete? I was only suggesting replacing the pipe that is easily dug up and not under concrete.

    Also, you want the Hartford as close to the spa as possible.

    For pipe that long, I would have used at least 2.5" but 3" would be better.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    all 85' is currently under fiber reinforced concrete. They would have to cut through the concrete or dig under to get to the spa.

    22' is about as close as we can get. If they extend what we have it would be an additional 40', 20' from the current spa connection to Hartford loop, 20' back to spa. If they move the blower to the other side of the yard the Hartford loop would still be about 20' away.

    The blower has a 2" connection, how would mate a 3" pipe to the blower. Just use an adapter?
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    Ok given that, nix the pipe replacement. That would be way too much effort.

    Is the ground sloped up or down from the spa to the blower? If sloped up to the blower, a Hartford would not help much, but if down to the blower, it could help a lot.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    IMG_0082.jpgIMG_0083.jpgIMG_0084.jpgIMG_0087.jpgIMG_0086.jpg

    The yard between the two points is pretty much level. The blower pipe rises about three feet over the water level of the spa, it's free standing.

    Included some pictures:
    *0082.jpg is the pool equipment, you can see the blower sticking up in the distance with the black top, it's about 33' from the gate to the blower
    *0083 is the driveway that the pipes go under, roughly 27'
    *0084 is a picture of the spa to the gate, approximately 25'

    *0086 and 0087 show the yard. They could install the blower on that side of the house and put the Hartford loop in the area behind the flower pot (0087). We are limited on what we can do in that are due to a drainage pipe underneath. However, the city says that we can put a pipe there and if they tear it out we'd have to fix it. Highly unlikely they will ever come that close to the house.

    I'm thinking they dig under the concrete, take the old blower pipe and connect it to a new one that goes to a Hartford loop in the area behind the flower pot. That pipe then goes to the blower on the side of the house. Add a check valve as required by the vendor, then also add a ball valve and water outlet valve so the pipes can be drained if we get freezing conditions.

    The distance from the Hartford loop to the spa would be roughly 20'.

    Also, the pipe is currently 2" wide. How would you suggest we run the 3" pipe. I'ts 2" at the polaris and 2" going into the spa.

    Is this a reasonable approach?
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    The yard between the two points is pretty much level.
    Level or down doesn't matter much. The entire pipe is probably filling with water.

    Also, the pipe is currently 2" wide. How would you suggest we run the 3" pipe.
    I don't suggest it unless you want to remove a lot of concrete.

    In the second picture, 83, there appears to be gravel under the fence next to the gate. Would it be possible to dig there and across to get to the air pipe or is there just not enough room? You may need to remove part of the driveway to get to it. That location might be the best spot to minimize the amount concrete you would have to remove. You could put the loop just on the driveway side of the fence. That should be close enough.

    What did the builder say they are willing to do since this is their fault it doesn't work?

    One thing that is still bothering me is why the blower failed. Worst case should have been that not enough air was coming out of the jets. I would not expect the blower to fail under those conditions. It would have needed to be fully restricted (i.e. no air flowing). Plus, the motor should have had a thermal limiter so if it got too hot, it will shut down. That prevents it from failing.

    Something else may be going on here. Have you checked the line voltage going to the blower? Do you have a PV power system?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    I meet with the PB tomorrow.

    So your questions caused me to re-evaluate what's going on. I went outside, turned on the air blower, it actually came on. Ran for about 2 minutes, very little air in the spa and then it shut off. I'm guessing it got hot?

    I don't think there is enough room next to the gate. Perhaps 3". I'd still need the ability to have a ball valve and some kind of spigot to get rid of any standing water when it gets cold.

    As far as what the pool builder is willing to do. Fortunately, the pool is still under warranty. Since this was their miss and the documentation from the manufacturer clearly shows that any air pipe longer than 25' must have a Hartford loop, they will have to solve the problem.

    No PV (assuming you mean solar power).

    I have not checked the voltage but will mention that to the PB.

    The manufacturer says this is exactly what they expect to happen when the pipe is filled with water for that distance. I would have thought a thermal shutoff would have occurred to protect the device, seems like common sense to me.

    Interestingly, it ran for about 15 minutes the other day before it died.
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    So your questions caused me to re-evaluate what's going on. I went outside, turned on the air blower, it actually came on. Ran for about 2 minutes, very little air in the spa and then it shut off. I'm guessing it got hot?
    Remove it from the pipe and run it and see how long it runs.


    I don't think there is enough room next to the gate. Perhaps 3". I'd still need the ability to have a ball valve and some kind of spigot to get rid of any standing water when it gets cold.
    You shouldn't need that. That pipe will be empty of water above ground. In your location, it should never freeze below ground.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    The water in the spa will be 18" above the ground because the spa is raised. Why would the water not match up with the water in the spa? Seems like the water in the pipe and the water in the spa would try to reach equilibrium (in other words, be level). We got down to 11 this year, so there's a good chance the pipe could freeze if any water is above the ground. Please help me understand.

    Thanks
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    Sorry, you are correct. I forgot the spa was raised but I don't think it will be practical to drain that single pipe if you plan on keeping the pool and spa open during the winter. Besides, you have a lot of other above ground equipment that will need to be protected as well. Are you planning to use freeze protection? The aqualink should rotate through the spa jets and you can include the blower too. Another option is to wrap the pipe in foam to help prevent freezing.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    we use freeze protection, did so this year. It wasn't cold long enough to cause problems. But a few years back it was below freezing for five days, lots of problems including some of our friends having in excess of $5000 damage to some of their pool products. I would rather be cautious and never need to drain the pipes than to need to drain the pipes and not be able to. Probably won't need it but I'd rather pay extra and be able to drain the pipe underground so I wouldn't have to demolish the driveway twice (assuming they like your idea).
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    http://www.jandy.com/~/media/zodiac/...s/tl/tl500.pdf, look on pg 7 for the amperage test, this is something the builder should do

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    Will definitely have them check the amperage.
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    Further investigation and discussions with the pool builder indicate that they did install a Hartford loop in the spa, it looks nothing like what the manual has but it's there. They provided details on how to identify the loop. It's actually embedded in the spa wall without a check valve.

    I still have the pictures I took of the plumbing, fortunately.

    They have agreed to order and warranty a new blower that Polaris is coming out with that should help with the back pressure. Also, they are of the opinion (which I agree with) that a 2.0 HP pump for 6 jets is excessive and they plan to install a smaller blower.

    I still plan to have them test with the amp meter to make sure we are not outside of the specs when they install the new blower.

    The distance will still be 85' to the spa, so they may have to move the blower. I think we can get it 33' closer and still be behind the fenced area with the pool equipment.

    Thanks for the assistance mas. Much appreciated.
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    Well, the hartford loop is present which is the good news. But the challenges continue. They installed the newest blower from the vendor, at least it shut down instead of melting the pipe. We ran a current check on both of the power lines that were going into the unit, the amperage was twice what it should be. Pool vendor said that the vendor indicated to them that this was normal operation for the large current draw, that it would settle down after the unit had started. Apparently this is incorrect.
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    Are they sure they have the correct voltage going to it?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    I think so. The blower uses 240 and there are two 120V lines running to the blower. It's on the same power as the pumps which use 240V. What should I be looking for?
    16.4K gal, IG Pebble Sheen, 2 X 2.7 Jandy HPPlus VS pumps, 580 sq ft Jandy cartridge, ozone, completed 4/2016, iAquaLink, Dolphin M500, Lamotte WaterLink Spin and Taylor K-2006 (to verify WaterLink), Jandy 400K JXi Heater, Jandy Nature Fusion 2 with 3" TriChlor tablets

  20. Back To Top    #20
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    Re: Spa Blower issues

    Did you measure the voltage between the two lines (not to neutral)?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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