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Thread: Help with numbers

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    Help with numbers

    We have a chlorine machine that makes chlorine from salt. We have had this for about 5 years with no problem and have just had it serviced. The chlorine it makes is unstabilized so I add stabilizer. That said, heres my problem. I've got a stain on the plaster that is a dark yellow. It has not responded to three algaecide treatments. I have taken a full set of readings, keep in mind the CH is not usually so high, I've increased to fight the stain. Thanks for any advice.

    FC 5
    TC 8
    CC 3
    PH 7.2
    TA 80
    CH 850
    CYA 140
    PHOS 325
    George, Porterville, CA.
    26,000 gl. inground plaster pool with sta-rite 1 1/2 hp pump and sta-rite 300 ft
    cartridge filter 100gpm.

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Help with numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by mavs215
    We have a chlorine machine that makes chlorine from salt. We have had this for about 5 years with no problem and have just had it serviced. The chlorine it makes is unstabilized so I add stabilizer. That said, heres my problem. I've got a stain on the plaster that is a dark yellow. It has not responded to three algaecide treatments. I have taken a full set of readings, keep in mind the CH is not usually so high, I've increased to fight the stain. Thanks for any advice.

    FC 5
    TC 8
    CC 3
    PH 7.2
    TA 80
    CH 850
    CYA 140
    PHOS 325
    Welcome to the forum...

    Your machine is an SWG, you should list that equipment in your signature.

    Algaecide doesn't have any affect on stains. Algaecide prevents algae. Once algae is present, the best way to kill it is shock levels of chlorine. Adding too much algaecide can cause more harm than good, especially if you used linear quat based or copper based. Can you tell me what the active ingredient of the algaecide was?

    Your first step in stain treatment would be do determine if the stain is metal or organic. To check for metals - read this article here.

    To check for organics - hold or weigh down a trichlor tablet on the stain for 30 min, and see if it fades.

    If the stains are copper, neither of the above will remove the stain, the vit C may actually darken it.

    I can tell you your numbers are really out of whack. What test kit are you using?

    See the article in Pool School water balance for SWGs and also Recommended Levels

    Your CYA is too high, you want it at 70-80. Your Calcium is way too high. I'm not sure why you felt raising the CH to 850 would treat the stains? (it doesn't).

    I'd suggest a partial water replacement to lower both of these numbers. See below.

    Ignore the phosphate reading it's irrelevant.

    I'm wondering what is causing the CC to be 3? You don't want your CC to be above .5, if it goes above .5 we recommend you shock your pool. With your CYA so high, shocking isn't very practical (see the CYA chart).

    With an SWG, once your stabilizer level is at 70-80, you don't need to keep adding it. With a cartridge filter, you don't lose the CYA level as quickly as one would with a sand filter thru backwashing.

    Assuming these numbers are indeed accurate, I'd suggest that you consider draining about 50% of your water and replace it with fresh. This is the only way to lower the CYA and the CH. This will require all your other numbers to be readjusted, including your salt level, but right now you are headed down a path of trouble.

    Is draining 50% of the water in your plaster pool possible in your particular situation? Otherwise you may have to do a series of partial drains and refills, say 1 foot down, refill, recirculate, repeat. Do you have any watertable issues in your area?

    I know this is alot to take in, and it's really frustrating to have 5 successful seasons and then suddenly a lot of trouble. But it seems to me this has been building for awhile. IT's not going to be fixed overnight, so be sure to have plenty of POP - Pool Owner Patience.

    Hope this helps.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: Help with numbers

    WOW, That IS a lot to take in. I kinda like the idea of draining and refilling, it would give me a fresh start. I'll have to rent a pump and refill. Thank you for your advice. I'll let you know when it' refilled for more help. Before I add SWG to my sig. one question. What's a SWG?
    George, Porterville, CA.
    26,000 gl. inground plaster pool with sta-rite 1 1/2 hp pump and sta-rite 300 ft
    cartridge filter 100gpm.

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    Re: Help with numbers

    No salt goes in the pool. The salt goes into something that looks like a large water softener and liquid chlorine goes into pool.
    George, Porterville, CA.
    26,000 gl. inground plaster pool with sta-rite 1 1/2 hp pump and sta-rite 300 ft
    cartridge filter 100gpm.

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    duraleigh's Avatar
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    Re: Help with numbers

    mavs,

    I have taken a full set of readings, keep in mind the CH is not usually so high, I've increased to fight the stain.
    CH cannot be reduced unless you do so by draining. Yours is extremel;y high.

    Also, it is not a stain fighter but, rather, a stain creator, so to speak.

    Anyway, your numbers are, indeed, way out of whack. I suggest you start with the basic articles up in Pool School. That will lead you to asking some questions and we'll all help.

    Prepare yourself, tho, we're gonna' suggest you drain a good portion of your water.
    Dave S. - Forum owner
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Butterfly's Avatar
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    Re: Help with numbers

    Hi George and welcome to the forum

    You do have a lot of info to take in, but you seem able and willing

    Quote Originally Posted by mavs215
    No salt goes in the pool. The salt goes into something that looks like a large water softener and liquid chlorine goes into pool.
    .....got a pic of this?
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    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Help with numbers

    New to me too. I do vaguely recall hearing about something like that....a brine unit or something...
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Help with numbers

    This is the way SWGs worked a long time ago. These systems tended to have some maintenance issues. They have more components than modern SWGs and conditions tend to get extremely corrosive in the brine tank. They work, but have been going away for a while as the modern design is considered superior.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Sounds like a Clorine Genie!

    There's a guy in CA named Dan Tucker who invented it. He has lofty claims for his product and nothing but distain for the modern SWG. He's also very proud of it in the area of $$ (~$3K installed). His website is http://www.thechlorinegeni.com if you're interested in checking it out. I could buy a whole lot of clorox for that kind of $$ (or actually buy my SWG and replace the cell 2-3 times!)
    20K gal IG vinyl 18'x36' rectangle, 2' radius corners
    Hayward Goldline Aqua Rite 40K SWG, Pentair Intelliflow VS 3050,
    Sta-Rite Cristal-Flo 24" Sand filter, Model T-240BP-1, Polaris 280 Auto Cleaner
    Sunstar solar panels (438 sq ft ), Pentair Sun Touch Controller automating solar panels, SWG, and Polaris
    TF-100 test kit

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    Guest

    Re: Help with numbers

    He didn't invent it...offline chlorine generation an old techology that's been pretty much discarded by the vast majority of companies. One of the biggest problems is the brine tank becomes very caustic due to the build up of sodium hydroxide in the tank and emptying this caustic brine, which needs to be done periodically, becomes problematic!

    For that matter, the first models of Intex SWGs from just a few years ago were brine tank systems and only cost around $200. Intex no longer offers them and has inline systems now.

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    Re: Help with numbers

    Well, he claims to be the inventor of the Chlorine Geni product at least...

    20K gal IG vinyl 18'x36' rectangle, 2' radius corners
    Hayward Goldline Aqua Rite 40K SWG, Pentair Intelliflow VS 3050,
    Sta-Rite Cristal-Flo 24" Sand filter, Model T-240BP-1, Polaris 280 Auto Cleaner
    Sunstar solar panels (438 sq ft ), Pentair Sun Touch Controller automating solar panels, SWG, and Polaris
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: Help with numbers

    Thanks for the great response. I goofed when I said that I increased the CH to fight the stain, I meant to say I increased the chlorins. Sorry.
    I will be getting a pump and going for the drain and refill in a day or two and will need some advice during the refill. I will probally start off without the chlorine machine, at least until everythings ok. I have included some pics of the unit, and their link is http://www.thechlorinefactory.com
    Attached Images Attached Images
    George, Porterville, CA.
    26,000 gl. inground plaster pool with sta-rite 1 1/2 hp pump and sta-rite 300 ft
    cartridge filter 100gpm.

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    frustratedpoolmom's Avatar
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    Re: Help with numbers

    It's a very good idea to obtain your FC from bleach while you are rebalancing the water.

    Interesting unit. It's been a learning experience.
    Helpful links: Pool School; CYA/Chlorine Chart
    24' round AG pool, 52" high, Raypak heater; Waterway 2 spd Pump;
    150 Sq ft. Clearwater Cartridge Filter; Former and DISSATISFIED "Pool Frog" owner
    http://www.PerfectlyClearPoolService.com

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    Re: Help with numbers

    Here is another pic of the inside of the unit.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    George, Porterville, CA.
    26,000 gl. inground plaster pool with sta-rite 1 1/2 hp pump and sta-rite 300 ft
    cartridge filter 100gpm.

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    Re: Help with numbers

    Any help with posting pics. would also be appeciated.
    George, Porterville, CA.
    26,000 gl. inground plaster pool with sta-rite 1 1/2 hp pump and sta-rite 300 ft
    cartridge filter 100gpm.

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