New filter, new pump, can't get pool to not be cloudy blue.

[Husky25]

I hear ya. See, I don't have an in-line chlorinator. I am a Baquacil convert on a pool that was already installed when I bought my house. So my regular maintenance (confirmed through testing) includes pouring in a half gallon of LC each night.

That said, my father (also located in the Northeast) has an inline puck chlorinator and has had little trouble with it, provided he starts the season with low CYA. By the end of the season, his CYA is pretty elevated, but it will reduce by the next Spring because he does a partial drain before closing and periodic draining over the Fall and early Spring because of his mesh cover.

I don't think you are doing it wrong, so long as you understand that CYA does not dissipate with water evaporation. So keep your eye on it and understand you may need a water dump at somepoint.

 

[ionizer]

I hear ya. See, I don't have an in-line chlorinator. I am a Baquacil convert on a pool that was already installed when I bought my house. So my regular maintenance (confirmed through testing) includes pouring in a half gallon of LC each night.

That said, my father (also located in the Northeast) has an inline puck chlorinator and has had little trouble with it, provided he starts the season with low CYA. By the end of the season, his CYA is pretty elevated, but it will reduce by the next Spring because he does a partial drain before closing and periodic draining over the Fall and early Spring because of his mesh cover.

I don't think you are doing it wrong, so long as you understand that CYA does not dissipate with water evaporation. So keep your eye on it and understand you may need a water dump at somepoint.

thanks. so in summary:

Liquid chlorine preferred if CYA is in acceptable range
Granular packets are purely for convenience, but "big box stores" will add CYA to it and overtime this is eventually going to be a problem if you don't drain/put new water in

I am guessing previous homeowner didnt do too much backwashing (little need due to little dirt) and overtime the CYA level just got high and this is the year in which it became an issue for me.

it just finished a torrential downpour here as I was filling up my pool (yeah free water!) and im going to (until I get the test kit) bring the water over as is to the store for a preliminary reading

i am guessing my CYA level is hopefully much lower (i will test friday with my own kit) and that I will obviously have almost no chlorine.

I have to put DE back in and run my pump, so I figured now is the best time to put in some liquid chlorine. I will go easy on the amounts until I can verify my own results Friday after the chlorine and pump have been going for 24-36 hrs.

 

[Cinic]

So you refer to pucks as a sometimes event. However, I have an offline chlroinator (hayward with adjustable dial) that I always have 'on' to varying levels. Those pucks essentially are ALWAYS feeding my pool. In addition to that, I was under the impression I should be adding 2-3 bags of "SHOCK" to my pool (32k gallons) about 1x a week.

Am I doing it wrong?

This is where the TFP method differs - if you maintain a minimum/target level of FC based on your CYA, there is no need for weekly 'shock' treatments. This 'target' level keeps the water sanitized. We only shock our pools if something goes wrong - like when I got complacent in the spring and let my pool run out of FC when it got warmer and sunnier. And even when shocking, we most often use liquid chlorine to maintain our CYA levels.

I've maintained my pool for about a year now and the only chemicals I've ever added are muriatic acid and liquid chlorine/bleach. It had enough (too much actually) CYA when we bought the house and has gradually lowered over the past year due to splash out and back-washing.

 

[ionizer]

This is where the TFP method differs - if you maintain a minimum/target level of FC based on your CYA, there is no need for weekly 'shock' treatments. This 'target' level keeps the water sanitized. We only shock our pools if something goes wrong - like when I got complacent in the spring and let my pool run out of FC when it got warmer and sunnier. And even when shocking, we most often use liquid chlorine to maintain our CYA levels.

I've maintained my pool for about a year now and the only chemicals I've ever added are muriatic acid and liquid chlorine/bleach. It had enough (too much actually) CYA when we bought the house and has gradually lowered over the past year due to splash out and back-washing.

thanks, this has all been so enlightening and it is so frustrating how much the pool stores obscure this information from you all in the effort to sell you unnecessary chemicals.

is there ever a legitimate need for clarifiers?

 

[cowboycasey]

clarifiers, floc, you name it, all that is not needed, they use it to clear a pool because the CYA is so high the pool is unsanitary and green

 

[ionizer]

clarifiers, floc, you name it, all that is not needed, they use it to clear a pool because the CYA is so high the pool is unsanitary and green

so i went to the pool store and my CYA level is now 69 (i know, i need to test myself and i will once i get my kit friday) .. i was actually hoping it would be much lower, but also my water wasn't circulating so who knows.

as expected my chlorine levels were almost nothing

he had me put in 7lbs of the the chlorine with calcium because he said my calcium levels were also low. i asked about the liquid chlorine but he said this would be better. given the two are about the same cost (understood that one may be higher profit margin for him) I took the advice for now.

Running filter until tomorrow night or friday night for re-test. hoping pool is crystal clear by then as adding the chlorine obviously made it a bit cloudy for the moment.

I have fresh DE running at min gauge on the filter when my variable filter is running full speed.

I hope this is the last major effort for the season other than usual maintenance.

- - - Updated - - -

bah, i just read on the site here: Pool School - ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry
that calcium isnt needed in a vinyl pool.

is this true even if you have fiberglass (plastic?) steps in both the shallow end and deep end (buddy seat i think its called) ?

i have no metal railings in the pool. just light fixture in and a heater outside

 

[pooldv]

You are catching on quickly! It isn't bad to raise CH in your pool, especially with the FG seat and stairs. Yes, liquid chlorine/bleach is always preferred. No to all potions, clarifier, phosfree, floc, filter cleaner, whatever.

Pretty much everything that should ever be put in your pool is listed here, Pool School - Recommended Pool Chemicals

The only thing I have put in my pool in 4+ years is
salt
Muriatic acid
20 Team Mule Borax
Kroger concentrated bleach
Calcium chloride
Granular CYA/Stabilizer

 

[Husky25]

I was just about to write...and then I read your update. Don't worry about Calcium. You have a liner. Low Calcium Hardness is important with plaster because it will leach it out of the plaster. Not so much for a vinyl liner.

High Calcium hardness may be a concern if a warranty on a piece of equipment hinged on it. You heater for example, but you indicate it is old, so whatever warranty may be expired.

Unless I am going on vacation, my answer to any chlorine question is Liquid, Liquid, Liquid. All day, everyday and twice on Sunday (but only if it needs it after I test the water ).

 

[cowboycasey]

That is true, no need to add CH in a vinyl pool unless your trying to balance your CSI but that is later on..

 

[pooldv]

(but only if it needs it after I test the water ).

Good answer!!!

 

[ionizer]

so final question(s) until I get my test:

how frequently do you Test your water? 1/week? 2-3/week? every day?
and on avg how frequently are you needing to "add some more liquid chlorine" - i realize this depends on what the test result is, but just wondering on average. with shock bags, obviously its once a week, but im not sure if liquid chlorine requires a more daily ritual?

 

[cowboycasey]

daily, every night is best but once a day, and test at the same time.. after about a year and you "know" your pool needs people can go to maybe 3 times a week testing but still have to add daily...

As you will start to see for your size pool I would recommend a Salt Water Generator because it adds chlorine every day, day in day out, it never forgets but they cost money up front, bleach/liquid chlorine/stenner/SWG all cost the same in the end over say 5 years

 

[ionizer]

daily, every night is best but once a day, and test at the same time.. after about a year and you "know" your pool needs people can go to maybe 3 times a week testing but still have to add daily...

As you will start to see for your size pool I would recommend a Salt Water Generator because it adds chlorine every day, day in day out, it never forgets but they cost money up front, bleach/liquid chlorine/stenner/SWG all cost the same in the end over say 5 years

im afraid about doing SWG b/c i didnt build the pool and who knows whats underneath and what was done. while it was built around 2001 and im sure was done properly, you never know and i hate introducing issues where i previously didnt have any.

its the same reason i continue to wear contacts instead of getting laser eye correction, it's not so much the cost, but the fear of causing a problem where one doesn't exist today!

 

[cowboycasey]

coming here you can get the rest of the story

remember when I posted this

So, you said the pool store had you add 25 pounds (400 ounces) of dichlor and that added the following to your pool

52 FC
47 CYA
lowered PH by 2
and added 42 PPM salt

You notice you added 42 ppm salt, you already have a saltwater pool, I bet you're pool is around 1500 to 2000 PPM salt right now, all chlorine is bounded by salt in some way.. you can get the cheap salt test strips to get a ballpark figure of how much salt you already have in the pool I think they have them at walmart

 

[ionizer]

FINALLY!!

So about 16 hours later, my deep end is finally clear and i can finally see the bottom. little spots of dirt I will have to get up, but finally the pool is clear.

im going to let the filter continue running 24-36 hours constantly (end of day today) and get my water tested one last time by the pool store just to see what they say.

friday my kit should arrive so i can begin testing myself and hope to get some advice on a day to day basis until i feel comfortable doing it myself!

after that, ill look into the donation options to see what is appropriate and probably be joining the forums on a more interesting basis (automation, etc.) rather than chemical balancing!

Before:
View attachment 49778

After:
View attachment 49777

- - - Updated - - -

coming here you can get the rest of the story

remember when I posted this


You notice you added 42 ppm salt, you already have a saltwater pool, I bet you're pool is around 1500 to 2000 PPM salt right now, all chlorine is bounded by salt in some way.. you can get the cheap salt test strips to get a ballpark figure of how much salt you already have in the pool I think they have them at walmart

i am confused, was this post geared towards me? I do not have a saltwater pool. (or were you somehow joking that the amount of salt added made it a saltwater pool or were you implying that all pools are saltwater in the sense of containing salt?) or perhaps this wasnt aimed at me.

 

[cowboycasey]

You said you were afraid of a SWG pool so I gave you the information, did you forget saying that?

Not implying anything just stating facts

I am using my phone so please excuse any spelling errors and short response.

 

[tim5055]

ionizer,

While you think the pool is clear, we are going to make it better...... Once you get your test kit the real work is going to start and in the end that pool is going to be sparkling clear!

Just to touch on a subject that has been drifting through this thread, but never really answered, why or why not solid chlorine? In it's natural state, chlorine is a gas. Many large commercial pools actually use gas injection systems to chlorinate their pools. Now, to change chlorine into something we can use at home it needs to be bound to something. The "somethings" that are commonly used are stabilizer (also known as CYA), calcium, lithium, or --- get this water. All of these add a little salt to your water, but they add something else. Cal-Hypo add calcium, Tri-Chlor and Di-Chlor (tabs and most granules) add stabilizer, Lithium hypochlorite adds lithium and liquid chlorine adds - water.

All of these things can be bad for your pool (except the water) in large quantities. The stabilizer helps shield the chlorine form UV degradation, but at higher levels it also impairs the ability of chlorine to do it's work. The higher the stabilizer level you have the higher the amount of chlorine you need. Too much calcium and you start to get scaling on the walls and floors of your pool.

So, why do pool stores push these products? Several reasons.

- Money would be the first. Unless a pool store is in Florida, Arizona or other year round areas they must make their profit in a short swim season. So, they need to sell you as much as they can as quickly as they can. Additionally, chemical sales is their bread and butter. Profit on a bucket of tabs is much higher than on a gallon of liquid.

- Secondly, we are an immediate gratification society. We want a magic potion that will fix our problem right now. This is where the industry has tried to add items like clarifiers, floculants and the like which in a perfect world help get the bad stuff out of the water quickly.

- Third in my book is training. Most pool store employees learn on the job or through seminars taught by chemical salesmen. So, bad information is handed down from employee to trainee and the chemical salesmen teach them to push high profit items. This is especially true in large chain stores where employees are paid commission and managers jobs are based on how much product flows out the door.

Pool store methods can work for a long time and many are oblivious to what is happening in their pool. If you are in an area where your pool is drained down a lot each winter and winter snow/rains fill an overflow the pool each spring you are starting with a blank canvas, chemically speaking.

TFP didn't create the methods we use, but we have fine tuned them to make them as "Trouble Free" as possible.

 

[ionizer]

You said you were afraid of a SWG pool so I gave you the information, did you forget saying that?

Not implying anything just stating facts

I am using my phone so please excuse any spelling errors and short response.

ahhhh ok, i see the point you were making. i was afraid of a SWG pool because of changing things up and you were stating that in essence i have a "saltwater pool" with the amount of salt, so if i wasn't having an issue with what i had done, i should be fine with the SWG.

still , ive replaced a pump with a new $1500 variable one and a filter with a $1k filter this year, not to mention the $300+ in chemicals before coming here, so I think I am done with my expenses for the time being. The out of line chlorinator was also done 2 yrs ago, so maybe down the road ill switch to SWG - any chance they will go down in price over time?

- - - Updated - - -

ionizer,

While you think the pool is clear, we are going to make it better...... Once you get your test kit the real work is going to start and in the end that pool is going to be sparkling clear!

Just to touch on a subject that has been drifting through this thread, but never really answered, why or why not solid chlorine?

.....

Well said Tim, the assessment of the chlorine types is really helpful - is that in a Wiki already? I know there is a page with the different chemicals, but im not sure it specifies the motivation/reasoning behind it? In any case, going to paste that to my father who has been following the traditional pool store advice ofl "shock 1x a week" method.

 

[tim5055]

Well said Tim, the assessment of the chlorine types is really helpful - is that in a Wiki already? I know there is a page with the different chemicals, but im not sure it specifies the motivation/reasoning behind it? In any case, going to paste that to my father who has been following the traditional pool store advice ofl "shock 1x a week" method.

No, as much of that is opinion it is hard to set it down in stone. Are there good pool stores out there, yes! But, most of them are in the "sun" states where a family can own a small store and operate it 12 months a year, give good service and make a profit.

In the rest of the country you mainly have a high school/college kid who has about an hour training testing your water and telling you what to buy to add to your water. I guess that's like going into a carpet store and asking if you need to buy new carpet.

Unfortunately the pool industry has evolved into sales by scare tactics, misdirection, misinformation and marketing hype. Go in to the store and tell them your TA is low and they are going to sell you baking soda in a fancy package at four times the cost of WalMart. Do they have a right to make a profit, yes - but lets be reasonable. Heck, even their definition of "low" can many times put you on a pH roller coaster that's hard to get off of. Is that lack of knowledge or a sales technique to sell you more chemicals to control your pH????

What the industry does not understand is that the internet is changing the industry. My favorite story is about my pool light. When I bought the house with the pool along with high CYA my pool light was not working. I could get a new bulb from Amazon for $19, but heck I'm part of that immediate gratification society as much as the next guy. I went down to the local pool store and there was the same bulb, $39. I talked with the manager. I didn't want them to match the price, they have to keep the lights on - just be a little more reasonable. The manager gave me two choices, take it or leave it.

OK, I'm off my soapbox and will stop derailing your thread.

 

[Silver_2000]

ionizer,

While you think the pool is clear, we are going to make it better...... Once you get your test kit the real work is going to start and in the end that pool is going to be sparkling clear!

Just to touch on a subject that has been drifting through this thread, but never really answered, why or why not solid chlorine? In it's natural state, chlorine is a gas. Many large commercial pools actually use gas injection systems to chlorinate their pools. Now, to change chlorine into something we can use at home it needs to be bound to something. The "somethings" that are commonly used are stabilizer (also known as CYA), calcium, lithium, or --- get this water. All of these add a little salt to your water, but they add something else. Cal-Hypo add calcium, Tri-Chlor and Di-Chlor (tabs and most granules) add stabilizer, Lithium hypochlorite adds lithium and liquid chlorine adds - water.

All of these things can be bad for your pool (except the water) in large quantities. The stabilizer helps shield the chlorine form UV degradation, but at higher levels it also impairs the ability of chlorine to do it's work. The higher the stabilizer level you have the higher the amount of chlorine you need. Too much calcium and you start to get scaling on the walls and floors of your pool.

So, why do pool stores push these products? Several reasons.

- Money would be the first. Unless a pool store is in Florida, Arizona or other year round areas they must make their profit in a short swim season. So, they need to sell you as much as they can as quickly as they can. Additionally, chemical sales is their bread and butter. Profit on a bucket of tabs is much higher than on a gallon of liquid.

- Secondly, we are an immediate gratification society. We want a magic potion that will fix our problem right now. This is where the industry has tried to add items like clarifiers, floculants and the like which in a perfect world help get the bad stuff out of the water quickly.

- Third in my book is training. Most pool store employees learn on the job or through seminars taught by chemical salesmen. So, bad information is handed down from employee to trainee and the chemical salesmen teach them to push high profit items. This is especially true in large chain stores where employees are paid commission and managers jobs are based on how much product flows out the door.

Pool store methods can work for a long time and many are oblivious to what is happening in their pool. If you are in an area where your pool is drained down a lot each winter and winter snow/rains fill an overflow the pool each spring you are starting with a blank canvas, chemically speaking.

TFP didn't create the methods we use, but we have fine tuned them to make them as "Trouble Free" as possible.

Its a really good basic summary of the types of chlorine and the reasons behind them ...

Thanks