Hi All,
First off, if there are posts that I have missed, i.e. questions of mine that have been answered, please excuse me, I am trying to formulate my problem / plan / scumbag brain as best I can, and just delving into posts can confuse me a bit if I don't know how the other persons mind works
So, currently I am busy with a thesis in which I am trying to combine all aspects of a swimming pool into one mathematical model...
The more I researched the topic, the more complex and in depth it became (as is the way of our world), but I have found so many conflicting ideas and advice, that I am currently at a loss: I think the easiest would be to link my introduction as it is now, and then you will have a better understanding of what I am trying to do (please ask questions). (please see attachment)
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1. Current Place in Space and Time
I have reached the point where the graphs done by chem_geek here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-water-chemistry-t628.html#p4366 are starting to become applicable, but I have no idea how chem_geek set them up...
In the graphs, and as I understand, factors like pH, Temp, and TDS in these graphs are a constant, but we all know that these factors are constantly changing and evolving on a /sec basis. @chem_geek: I have studied quite a few articles out there, but I have yet to find something that gives me a clear definition / idea of what is exactly going on... on what "facts" / literature did you base your calculations? I say "facts", since as far as I understand, a lot of the papers are based on experimental data, but no one has actually sat down and tried to define a proper model for these reactions.
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2. Choices, choices, choices... can't it just be the red pill?
Then there is the matter of all the products to produce disinfectant (HClO) out there:
Regarding U.V. absorption factors, I still have not been able to find any "proper" literature on the rate of decomposition that the 290 - 350 nm (please correct me if I am ever mistaken) bandwidth radiation has on the HOCL and OCL-, or even the C-NOH for that matter.
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3. Apparently matter can exist in 4 states, if given the correct conditions: http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-a-new-state-of-matter-the-jahn-teller-effect
The next part I have arrived at, is the formation of chloramines as the HClO reacts with nitrogen based compounds; such as the blood, sweat and tears of the average frustrated pool owner:
The literature I came across, but don't yet fully understand, concludes that the formation of these chloramines (especially the unwelcome NCl3) is closely related to pH. This makes sense yes, since HClO is more readily available at a lower pH, but what confuses me is this graph: http://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/chemical/disinfectants-chloramines.htm, originally taken from (Palin, 1950). As I understand graphs, there should be no NCl3 at the desired pH of 7.6... but in all the articles, they refer to the formation of NCl3 as being a clear and present danger... maybe Chemical graphs are different from mathematical graphs
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Right, so now maybe to just summarise my questions:
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A word or two or twenty:
Regarding Q. 2: I have found a reliable model to predict the incidence angle of radiation from the Sun. It has been published by NREL: Solar Position Algorithm for Solar Radiation Applications. Since I know the angle of incidence, I can integrate over the bandwidth in question, which then gives me a very clear picture of the exact amount of radiation introduced to the pool. So I am sure I can calculate the rate of reaction from this... I just need the missing link.
Regarding Q. 3: I understand that it forces a reverse reaction which in turn breaks down the chloramines, but does this then escape the system as gas? Or are my chloramines locked in the system? In other words, won't they just reform?
Well, I think this might be a good start... obviously there are an insane amount of variables, but I always say: "Ever wondered how to many possibilities there are to a 64-bit password? No Problem, only Solution."
Regards,
Helios_Hyperion
- - - Updated - - -
Don't know if it attached my attachment
First off, if there are posts that I have missed, i.e. questions of mine that have been answered, please excuse me, I am trying to formulate my problem / plan / scumbag brain as best I can, and just delving into posts can confuse me a bit if I don't know how the other persons mind works
So, currently I am busy with a thesis in which I am trying to combine all aspects of a swimming pool into one mathematical model...
The more I researched the topic, the more complex and in depth it became (as is the way of our world), but I have found so many conflicting ideas and advice, that I am currently at a loss: I think the easiest would be to link my introduction as it is now, and then you will have a better understanding of what I am trying to do (please ask questions). (please see attachment)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Current Place in Space and Time
I have reached the point where the graphs done by chem_geek here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-water-chemistry-t628.html#p4366 are starting to become applicable, but I have no idea how chem_geek set them up...
In the graphs, and as I understand, factors like pH, Temp, and TDS in these graphs are a constant, but we all know that these factors are constantly changing and evolving on a /sec basis. @chem_geek: I have studied quite a few articles out there, but I have yet to find something that gives me a clear definition / idea of what is exactly going on... on what "facts" / literature did you base your calculations? I say "facts", since as far as I understand, a lot of the papers are based on experimental data, but no one has actually sat down and tried to define a proper model for these reactions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Choices, choices, choices... can't it just be the red pill?
Then there is the matter of all the products to produce disinfectant (HClO) out there:
- Cl2 (which of course is not used anymore, but a lot of literature still use this as the base for chlorination)
- NaOCL (for salt pools?)
- Ca(OCL)2 (this will obviously influence Calcium Hardness, L.S.I., but Ca2+ is needed to combat grout deterioration?)
- (C-NClO)3
- (C-NClO)3 + H2O -> 3HClO + (C-NOH)3
Regarding U.V. absorption factors, I still have not been able to find any "proper" literature on the rate of decomposition that the 290 - 350 nm (please correct me if I am ever mistaken) bandwidth radiation has on the HOCL and OCL-, or even the C-NOH for that matter.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Apparently matter can exist in 4 states, if given the correct conditions: http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-a-new-state-of-matter-the-jahn-teller-effect
The next part I have arrived at, is the formation of chloramines as the HClO reacts with nitrogen based compounds; such as the blood, sweat and tears of the average frustrated pool owner:
- NH3 + HClO -> NH2Cl + H2O
- NH2Cl + HClO -> NHCl2 + H2O
- NHCl2 + HClO -> NCl3 + H2O
The literature I came across, but don't yet fully understand, concludes that the formation of these chloramines (especially the unwelcome NCl3) is closely related to pH. This makes sense yes, since HClO is more readily available at a lower pH, but what confuses me is this graph: http://www.lenntech.com/processes/disinfection/chemical/disinfectants-chloramines.htm, originally taken from (Palin, 1950). As I understand graphs, there should be no NCl3 at the desired pH of 7.6... but in all the articles, they refer to the formation of NCl3 as being a clear and present danger... maybe Chemical graphs are different from mathematical graphs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right, so now maybe to just summarise my questions:
- How were the HClO vs. TFC graphs constructed?
- What about Temp, TDS, pH changes?
- Any information on the energy absorption characteristics of (C-NOH)3?
- How do I calculate the state of the chloramines? How does Shocking influence this?
- Anything else that someone can think of that I am missing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A word or two or twenty:
Regarding Q. 2: I have found a reliable model to predict the incidence angle of radiation from the Sun. It has been published by NREL: Solar Position Algorithm for Solar Radiation Applications. Since I know the angle of incidence, I can integrate over the bandwidth in question, which then gives me a very clear picture of the exact amount of radiation introduced to the pool. So I am sure I can calculate the rate of reaction from this... I just need the missing link.
Regarding Q. 3: I understand that it forces a reverse reaction which in turn breaks down the chloramines, but does this then escape the system as gas? Or are my chloramines locked in the system? In other words, won't they just reform?
Well, I think this might be a good start... obviously there are an insane amount of variables, but I always say: "Ever wondered how to many possibilities there are to a 64-bit password? No Problem, only Solution."
Regards,
Helios_Hyperion
- - - Updated - - -
Don't know if it attached my attachment