Plumbing enigma - Jandy check valve

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Russmd

Well-known member
May 14, 2013
159
Los Angeles, CA
Pool Size
40000
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
CircuPool RJ-60
Is it normal or expected that a Jandy check valve can allow some flow backwards through it or are they designed to be 100% flow in one direction? I replaced the insides with new and still seems to.

Please bare with me, this is a complicated plumbing system to describe, but bottom line is on my in-ground pool, I have a solar heating system which, when valves are turned, pumps the water thru black tubing on the roof. An automatic Jandy 3 way valve determines if water goes to the roof or not (with a T valve there as well if need to isolate). The return from the roof merges with the regular return - the solar return line has a Jandy check valve before the merge, to keep water from flowing back up the return when in non-solar mode. I have spigots on the roof panels to drain them in the winter. When the system is in non-solar mode and the spigots are open, I get a steady slight stream of water dripping out of them. The flow up to the roof is closed both by the 3 way valve and by the T valve. It could only be back flowing up through that return line with the check valve. I replaced the insides of the check valve and it still happens. Should that check valve stop backflow 100%? I’m baffled. Thanks.
 
Russmd said:
I’m baffled.
Click to expand...
Pun intended ? :salut:

Check valves stop backwards flow. Its possible glue dripped onto the edge openings when installed.

Did you use OEM replacement guts ? There's been some reports of knockoffs not working properly.
 
Of course pun intended!

I did not use OEM; but surprising that the old and new both allow backflow. I’ll open it back up and check the edge openings. Thanks.
 
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In many solar pool heat installs there is a vacuum relief valve installed at the panels and the three way has a check valve to allow for the panels to fully drain when the solar is off. AFAIK only pentair makes the diverter with the check valve so in some installs there is a small hole drilled in the diverter which could be allowing some water up to the panels.
I beleive either @mas985 or @Dirk are the solar gurus so maybe they can add suggestions to check.
 
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Ahultin said:
In many solar pool heat installs there is a vacuum relief valve installed at the panels and the three way has a check valve to allow for the panels to fully drain when the solar is off. AFAIK only pentair makes the diverter with the check valve so in some installs there is a small hole drilled in the diverter which could be allowing some water up to the panels.
I beleive either @mas985 or @Dirk are the solar gurus so maybe they can add suggestions to check.
Click to expand...
^^^ this. And for what it's worth, you don't have a "complicated plumbing system." Yours is quite typical for a solar heater installation. And full disclosure, @mas985 is our expert. I just post non-sense about solar systems that he then has to correct! ;)

If you're inspired, you can disassemble your solar three-way to determine if it has either a check valve or a drilled hole in its diverter. That might solve the mystery.

When you turn off the pump at the end of the day (when solar was engaged that day), do you hear a glug-glug for some period of time? 10-20 minutes or so. If so, that would likely indicate two things: that you have a vacuum relief valve somewhere in your system (usually up on the roof) and that the water is draining through your plumbing somewhere. Part of the water on the roof will come down through the return pipe, and the Jandy check valve you referenced, but most of it will come down on the supply side (assuming your "black tubing on the roof" was installed correctly). And the water coming down the supply side goes through the hole in the three-way solar valve diverter. That hole (or check valve if you have one) is relatively small, which is why it takes as long as it does. That water coming down on the return side doesn't take much time at all.

The little check valve in the three-way solar valve is supposed to keep water from back flowing up the solar supply pipe when not in solar mode. But a drilled hole doesn't, or that little check valve, if you have one, might be faulty.

OK, that all said, the confusing part of your description is this "T valve." What it is, and where it is, might impact our explanations. Can you post a pic of it, please?

Bottom line, it might be a defective Jandy check, but the more likely culprit for the mystery water is the three-way solar valve or a faulty "T valve," whatever that is.
 
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It sounds like your plumbing setup looks something like this, which as I said, is a very typical solar installation. This drawing shows the vacuum breaker, the drain spigots you mentioned, the three-way solar valve and some isolation valves, just like your system.

Screen Shot 2025-03-05 at 2.09.03 AM.png
By "T valve" I think you meant "ball valve," yes? This guy?
shopping.jpeg

How many are there, and where? Do you have three, like the drawing above, or two, or one, and where are they relative to the three-way solar valve. Knowing all that will help with our diagnosis.

And if you have two drain spigots, which one is dribbling? The one on the supply pipe, or the return pipe, or both?
 
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Thank you all so much. I’m going to work on getting some good pictures but the pipes are so convoluted (there are spa pipes involved as well) they may be difficult to interpret. To answer some of the questions above:
-yes, there is a vacuum relief valve “glug glug” on the roof.
-yes, the t-valve is the ball valve shown.
-I have 2 panel arrays on separate areas of the roof and the drain spigots are on the bottom of each.
-I think my general plumbing is similar to the diagram with the addition of the spa pipes, I’ll get specifics and pictures.

I did not know that when the solar turns off and the panels drain, some comes down the supply side as well. Both my supply and return lines have ball valves installed that can isolate them. I did some experimenting that brought all of this up. With solar turned off, I closed the ball valves on both lines, opened the panel spigots and drained them completely. When I then open only the ball valve on the return line, I get small but steady water flow out of the roof panel spigots. The supply side is still shut off by ball valve (and solar valve). Common sense tells me it has to be going up the return side but the check valve installed in that line should prevent that. That’s the check valve I replaced the guts on.

I’ll send pics. Thanks.
 
Russmd said:
Thank you all so much. I’m going to work on getting some good pictures but the pipes are so convoluted (there are spa pipes involved as well) they may be difficult to interpret. To answer some of the questions above:
-yes, there is a vacuum relief valve “glug glug” on the roof.
-yes, the t-valve is the ball valve shown.
-I have 2 panel arrays on separate areas of the roof and the drain spigots are on the bottom of each.
-I think my general plumbing is similar to the diagram with the addition of the spa pipes, I’ll get specifics and pictures.

I did not know that when the solar turns off and the panels drain, some comes down the supply side as well. Both my supply and return lines have ball valves installed that can isolate them. I did some experimenting that brought all of this up. With solar turned off, I closed the ball valves on both lines, opened the panel spigots and drained them completely. When I then open only the ball valve on the return line, I get small but steady water flow out of the roof panel spigots. The supply side is still shut off by ball valve (and solar valve). Common sense tells me it has to be going up the return side but the check valve installed in that line should prevent that. That’s the check valve I replaced the guts on.

I’ll send pics. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the thorough response. We'll need to better understand the relative order of the valves to help you troubleshoot. The pics might help with that. In other words, are the ball valves before or after the solar three-way, are the drain spigots before or after the ball valves, etc.
 
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Dirk said:
Thanks for the thorough response. We'll need to better understand the relative order of the valves to help you troubleshoot. The pics might help with that. In other words, are the ball valves before or after the solar three-way, are the drain spigots before or after the ball valves, etc.
Click to expand...
Here’s the best I could do with pictures. There are a lot of pipes in a tight space.
Diagram of involved plumbing(not as pretty as yours)
IMG_4128.jpegThe drain spigots are at the bottoms of the roof panels on the roof. Coming in from the solar return side, first is a ball valve, currently closed.
IMG_4122.jpegAfter the bend in the pipe is the check valve that I replaced the guts on. After that valve is where the non-solar line T’s in, both continuing to the heater.
IMG_4123.jpegIMG_4124.jpegNext is a view of the 3 way automatic solar valve. Right limb is the one we saw before going down to the heater. Ignore the capped T on the side. Central limb is input from filter and pump. Left limb is output to the solar panels (ignore capped T) with another on/off valve (Jandy) in that line. (I call it Jandy ball valve but I know it’s not a real ball valve).
IMG_4125.jpegSo you’ll see that I have isolation valves available to me distal on both ends, input and output. As I said earlier, when the isolation valves are open and the 3 way is set to heater, water still makes its way up to the panels as evidenced by leakage out of the spigots (not high pressure but leakage). When both isolation valves closed, no leakage. When Jandy ball valve open and solar return ball valve closed, no leakage. When Jandy ball valve closed and solar return ball valve open, leakage. Only reasonable conclusion to me is it’s making it backwards past the check valve in the solar return line up to the roof panels. I replaced the guts of that check valve with a new but non-OEM part. I did not inspect the insides for any possible glue or crack inside that check valve so that’s a possible next step. I was also wondering if that “flapper” may pulse a little open with the rapid water flow down the non-solar side pulling it open. I’m not looking to pull everything apart and re-plumb- it works quite well as is. I can always keep the isolation valves closed during the off season. It’s just intellectual curiosity…. Thanks,
 
I didn't study your pictures too much, just the drawing, thanks for that. Both of your isolation ball valves are in the wrong place. And at least one is a ball valve (notorious for failure). If it is not already failing, it will.

If you want to continue to troubleshoot this, fine. If you want to solve it, here's how (two ways):

1.
- cut out the existing isolation valves and replace them with couplers.
- locate three Jandy two-way valves in the proper locations: as per the drawing I provided.
They would then isolate the solar valve, the check valve, all the panels and associated plumbing running to them, the spigots, everything solar,

OR

2.
Replace the two isolation valves with Jandy two-way valves (one might already be Jandy, see below). They can be inspected and repaired should they ever cause problems (not true of ball valves).

In your current config, if you have both isolation valves closed, whether the check valve is leaking or not, whether the solar valve has a functioning check or hole or not, and you're getting water out of the spigots, then one or both of those isolation valves are leaking.

As I alluded, ball valves have no place in a pool plumbing system, period. We see them causing problems all the time. I had one and it broke. I replaced it with Jandy.

And just to be thorough: the black-handled ball valve in the first image is closed (handle perpendicular to the pipe). The blue-handled ball valve in the last pic is NOT closed, though I think that might be for some other purpose. If the other solar isolation valve is that black-handled Jandy in the last pic (next to the words "shut off valve"), that appears to be closed (but doesn't mean it's not leaking). Those Jandy valves can fail eventually, but there are rebuild kits for those. You might rebuild that one and replace the other ball valve with the same type of Jandy valve.

There is plenty of room on either side of the black-handled ball valve to replace it with a Jandy two-way. That would be a relatively simple task. Then you'd have two "new" Jandy valves and that should stop the leaking spigot.
 
Dirk said:
I didn't study your pictures too much, just the drawing, thanks for that. Both of your isolation ball valves are in the wrong place. And at least one is a ball valve (notorious for failure). If it is not already failing, it will.

If you want to continue to troubleshoot this, fine. If you want to solve it, here's how (two ways):

1.
- cut out the existing isolation valves and replace them with couplers.
- locate three Jandy two-way valves in the proper locations: as per the drawing I provided.
They would then isolate the solar valve, the check valve, all the panels and associated plumbing running to them, the spigots, everything solar,

OR

2.
Replace the two isolation valves with Jandy two-way valves (one might already be Jandy, see below). They can be inspected and repaired should they ever cause problems (not true of ball valves).

In your current config, if you have both isolation valves closed, whether the check valve is leaking or not, whether the solar valve has a functioning check or hole or not, and you're getting water out of the spigots, then one or both of those isolation valves are leaking.

As I alluded, ball valves have no place in a pool plumbing system, period. We see them causing problems all the time. I had one and it broke. I replaced it with Jandy.

And just to be thorough: the black-handled ball valve in the first image is closed (handle perpendicular to the pipe). The blue-handled ball valve in the last pic is NOT closed, though I think that might be for some other purpose. If the other solar isolation valve is that black-handled Jandy in the last pic (next to the words "shut off valve"), that appears to be closed (but doesn't mean it's not leaking). Those Jandy valves can fail eventually, but there are rebuild kits for those. You might rebuild that one and replace the other ball valve with the same type of Jandy valve.

There is plenty of room on either side of the black-handled ball valve to replace it with a Jandy two-way. That would be a relatively simple task. Then you'd have two "new" Jandy valves and that should stop the leaking spigot.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply.
First of all, disregard the blue handled valve - it is NOT in the solar lines, it is a ratio valve on a separate line for my waterfall. I am aware that both the DARK GRAY handled ball valve on the solar return line in the first photo (return from solar written in red on pvc) and black handled Jandy valve on the solar out line are in the closed positions in the pictures. I called them the "isolation valves" in the last paragraph of my pictures just above. I did say in that paragraph that when both of those valves are closed like they are in the pictures, or even when just the gray handled solar return line ball valve is closed, there is NO leakage so those valves are working fine.
Pasted from the end of that paragraph:
... when the dark gray ball valve on the solar return line is open..."Only reasonable conclusion to me is it’s making it backwards past the check valve in the solar return line up to the roof panels. I replaced the guts of that check valve with a new but non-OEM part. I did not inspect the insides for any possible glue or crack inside that check valve so that’s a possible next step. I was also wondering if that “flapper” may pulse a little open with the rapid water flow down the non-solar side pulling it open. I’m not looking to pull everything apart and re-plumb- it works quite well as is. I can always keep the isolation valves closed during the off season. It’s just intellectual curiosity…. Thanks,"
Big question - how is it making it back up past that check valve? Is it still faulty within the valve? Is its proximity to the non-solar flow drawing it open some? Hmmmmm....
 
Russmd said:
I’m not looking to pull everything apart and re-plumb- it works quite well as is.
Click to expand...
Cool. And sorry, I must have missed a few sentences. I thought you were worried about water traveling through the panels during freezing weather, and I was helping with that. (Or thought I was.) Let us know what you find if you ever solve it.
 
Dirk said:
Cool. And sorry, I must have missed a few sentences. I thought you were worried about water traveling through the panels during freezing weather, and I was helping with that. (Or thought I was.) Let us know what you find if you ever solve it.
Click to expand...
Thanks you! Anybody vote for Bernoulli’s suction principle sucking the check valve flapper open a little letting some water slide by? This is strictly mental exercise at this point! 😂
 
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Are the 2 arrays on the roof plumbed series or parallel, are they on the same plane of the roof and do they each have a vacuum relief?
Best guess given the plumbing config is that the actual issue is one or both is not fully draining and the vacuum is making it appear as if there is a small steady stream as it takes forever to drain.
My 10 panels are below pool level so they do not fully drain unless I manually drain them. When I have (rarely) it takes forever to drain the 10 panels and ~140ft of 2" pvc -most likely because my vacuum breaker is on the high side which happens to be at the pool equipment on the supply side. The return side has ~70 ft of pipe with no real vacuum relief. If I want to drain a bit faster but not purge the return run, I have a shutoff on the panel output at the panels and a tee to a hose bib. This allows the panels to drain quicker but not the return line.
Since freezing temps are extremely rare here it's less of an issue but I'll note that the rep at solar pool supply where we bought the panels from said they get more freeze damaged panel warranty claims from areas thay don't regularly freeze than from areas that do.
 
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Ahultin said:
Are the 2 arrays on the roof plumbed series or parallel, are they on the same plane of the roof and do they each have a vacuum relief?
Best guess given the plumbing config is that the actual issue is one or both is not fully draining and the vacuum is making it appear as if there is a small steady stream as it takes forever to drain.
My 10 panels are below pool level so they do not fully drain unless I manually drain them. When I have (rarely) it takes forever to drain the 10 panels and ~140ft of 2" pvc -most likely because my vacuum breaker is on the high side which happens to be at the pool equipment on the supply side. The return side has ~70 ft of pipe with no real vacuum relief. If I want to drain a bit faster but not purge the return run, I have a shutoff on the panel output at the panels and a tee to a hose bib. This allows the panels to drain quicker but not the return line.
Since freezing temps are extremely rare here it's less of an issue but I'll note that the rep at solar pool supply where we bought the panels from said they get more freeze damaged panel warranty claims from areas thay don't regularly freeze than from areas that do.
Click to expand...
My panel arrays look to be plumbed in parallel. I’ve attached pictures below. They are on the same plane but there are definitely some rising sections of pipe that would inhibit draining through the piping/pump system. I don’t know for sure that each array has a vacuum relief valve but I believe so. I included a pic of the hose bib that I have on each array to allow manual draining, they drain easily and fully through these. To reiterate, my issue is not draining them for off season- that I do easily with the hose bibs. My issue is that when I have just the automatic solar valve turned off, I still get some minimal flow through the panels as evidenced by small flow out the hose bibs should they be open. If I turn both isolation ball valves off, dripping out the bibs stops. If I open the isolation valve on the return line, dripping starts up again despite there being a check valve (which I replaced the guts of already) in that line. If I close both isolation valves and open the hose bibs, all drains easily and dripping stops so I can do that in off season, I just like everything to work perfectly!
 

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Russmd said:
My panel arrays look to be plumbed in parallel. I’ve attached pictures below. They are on the same plane but there are definitely some rising sections of pipe that would inhibit draining through the piping/pump system. I don’t know for sure that each array has a vacuum relief valve but I believe so. I included a pic of the hose bib that I have on each array to allow manual draining, they drain easily and fully through these. To reiterate, my issue is not draining them for off season- that I do easily with the hose bibs. My issue is that when I have just the automatic solar valve turned off, I still get some minimal flow through the panels as evidenced by small flow out the hose bibs should they be open. If I turn both isolation ball valves off, dripping out the bibs stops. If I open the isolation valve on the return line, dripping starts up again despite there being a check valve (which I replaced the guts of already) in that line. If I close both isolation valves and open the hose bibs, all drains easily and dripping stops so I can do that in off season, I just like everything to work perfectly!
Click to expand...
Given your location, I don't understand why you even bother with "winterization". We get far colder than you do and I don't bother with anything related to winterization or freeze protection. It is never an issue even if temperatures dip down to freezing.

The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection

Recently, there have been a lot of questions from those living in moderate climates about using automatic freeze protection or running pumps to prevent freezing and what a pool owner should do when temperatures drop so I thought it might be useful to have a thread which dealt with the issue from...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

Did you confirm that the solar valve is a valve with an internal check valve? Those will often leak some. Standard valves can leak as well.
 
mas985 said:
Given your location, I don't understand why you even bother with "winterization". We get far colder than you do and I don't bother with anything related to winterization or freeze protection. It is never an issue even if temperatures dip down to freezing.

The Physics of Freezing and Freeze Protection

Recently, there have been a lot of questions from those living in moderate climates about using automatic freeze protection or running pumps to prevent freezing and what a pool owner should do when temperatures drop so I thought it might be useful to have a thread which dealt with the issue from...
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com

Did you confirm that the solar valve is a valve with an internal check valve? Those will often leak some. Standard valves can leak as well.
Click to expand...
I actually had some freeze damage to my last set of panels several years ago requiring replacement of several panels. Before that, I never winterized them. The replacing company recommended that I just drain them and shut them off during the winter, when they don’t do much anyway, so I took their recommendation.
Regarding the solar valve- I did not confirm what you questioned yet but I don’t see how that would be involved seeing as I have the water leaking even when the Jandy isolation valve past it is closed (see photos earlier in the thread). That takes the solar valve out of the loop at that point by my understanding. I realize this is not worth chasing much, I’m just curious. Thanks.
 
Russmd said:
Regarding the solar valve- I did not confirm what you questioned yet but I don’t see how that would be involved seeing as I have the water leaking even when the Jandy isolation valve past it is closed (see photos earlier in the thread). That takes the solar valve out of the loop at that point by my understanding. I realize this is not worth chasing much, I’m just curious. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Because valves, including isolation valves, can and do leak as they age.
 

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