Help me find an elusive (possible?) air leak?

Mar 15, 2015
18
San Diego, CA
This has been dogging me for a few weeks now and my Google Fu has not helped me find an answer; please Obi-Wan TFP, you're my only hope...

(Also apologies in advance if my signature doesn't have pool details, it's been a long time since I posted, I'll check that right after I post this...)

I think I have an air leak, but the symptoms don't seem to fit? I've checked and silicone-lubed the strainer pot lid and the filter tank lid's O-rings. It's a Clean and Clear 200 (I think it the proper name.) I just put in a brand new filter a couple nights ago. The strainer pot doesn't lose water, there's only a small bubble of air at the top when everything is off. When I turn it on, it gets loud and there's a turbulent vortex in the strainer pot. I've opened the pump twice to check the impeller (everything is clean, the impeller is even see-through plastic and it's spotless). I lubed the pump o-ring as well. When running, there is strong return from the two jets in the pool, and no bubbles. However, after about an hour or so, if I open the air relief valve in the tank, I get a whoosh of air, and after a good few seconds I finally get water flow. Pressure is virtually zero in the tank even though the pool seems to circulate (I can tell by dust and leaves that it's definitely moving). If I leave it for a longer period of time, it takes longer to fill up the tank, plus I eventually start seeing bubbles in the return jets, so I'm definitely getting air at some point, somewhere.

I've tried shaving cream, dishsoap bubbles, and immersing all the joints before the pump with a garden hose in an effort to find a leak. I've tried on the strainer pot lid as well. There's no valves before the pump, just a short bit of PVC pipe (1.5"). This pool is fairly old, my grandparents built it when I was a kid. Seemed to work more or less just fine until a few weeks ago after I vacuumed using a leaf catcher inline with a hose. I thought perhaps I could have somehow gotten a clog in the skimmer intake line, but I've used a Drain Jet Hydaulic tool on it many many times, both directions, to no avail - plus it seems like the water flow is about right for what I'd expect to see come out of a garden hose.

The pool doesn't lose any water though, so I don't think I have a leak below the water surface. Could I have a leak underground, but above the water line? (The pump is on a concrete pad, somewhat above the water level, maybe a couple feet or so). I'm at my wits end, I can't figure out where this slow air leak seems to come from. Is it time for me to lay out the cash to have someone fix this, or fill it in and pretend like I wanted a lawn? Please, grant me your wisdom, TFP!

And apologies for the wall of text!
 
tw, much of what you said in the beginning of your description sounds relatively normal. Even the air hissing/relief from the top of the filter when you open it from time to time. Your basket seems to stay full and you don't lose prime which is good. A couple things do confuse me though, so let's confirm:
1 - "Pressure is virtually zero in the tank " - You mean the filter gauge when running correct? Perhaps the gauge is bad? Does it move at all and/or stay at zero when off?
2 - "If I leave it for a longer period of time, it takes longer to fill up the tank, plus..." - If you leave what on? I'm not making the connection on that one.
3 - Does the pump strainer basket ever lose water when the system is off? If so, that could indicate a small air leak somewhere in the system and could be before or after the filter allowing air into the system. That could move water around allowing air in the plumbing which would explain the need to use the "air relief" at start-up on top of the filter.

Maybe post a pic of your equipment pad as well just so we can see first-hand what you have there.
 
If this started to happen after you changed your filter cartridge, you may have missed something during the reassembly. The last time I put my DE filter back together, I didn't properly seat the air bleed sock on top of the down pipe. With the pump off, water drained from the filter and I experienced the same symptoms you describe. I tore it apart and put it back together which corrected the problem. The filter seal may not be seated properly or the air bleed valve may not be tight on top of the filter. Just a couple more areas to check...
 
tw, much of what you said in the beginning of your description sounds relatively normal. Even the air hissing/relief from the top of the filter when you open it from time to time. Your basket seems to stay full and you don't lose prime which is good. A couple things do confuse me though, so let's confirm:
1 - "Pressure is virtually zero in the tank " - You mean the filter gauge when running correct? Perhaps the gauge is bad? Does it move at all and/or stay at zero when off?
2 - "If I leave it for a longer period of time, it takes longer to fill up the tank, plus..." - If you leave what on? I'm not making the connection on that one.
3 - Does the pump strainer basket ever lose water when the system is off? If so, that could indicate a small air leak somewhere in the system and could be before or after the filter allowing air into the system. That could move water around allowing air in the plumbing which would explain the need to use the "air relief" at start-up on top of the filter.

Maybe post a pic of your equipment pad as well just so we can see first-hand what you have there.
Hey, thanks for the quick reply! Okay yeah for sure, I took a photo, let me see if I can figure out how to get that on here... but let me answer those questions;
1. Correct, while running. It used to run around 10psi or so when clean and would rise from there as the filter got dirty. Right now it'll jump up to what looks like 1 or 2 psi when I turn on the pump and then it drops back to zero when I switch it off.
2. Sorry I wasn't super clear on that. So what happens is, if I turn the pump on and bleed the air from the filter tank, and close the air relief valve once water sprays out, if I come back in about 30 minutes and open the air relief valve, I get about three seconds of air and no water. If I let the pump run for a couple hours and open the relief valve, it takes about 30 seconds before I get any water coming out of it.
3. It doesn't seem to, even when I left it for a couple days it never seemed to empty out at all.

Okay got the photo attached; just in case it helps the pool has one floor drain which goes to the skimmer, and then the skimmer has a line that goes to the pump (coming up from the ground on the left of the photo, making a 90 degree turn to horizontal and then a 45 into the strainer) after the pump there's a valve which lets water go to some solar panels during the summer (it's been turned off for a while though; much longer than this problem has been going on).
 

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If this started to happen after you changed your filter cartridge, you may have missed something during the reassembly. The last time I put my DE filter back together, I didn't properly seat the air bleed sock on top of the down pipe. With the pump off, water drained from the filter and I experienced the same symptoms you describe. I tore it apart and put it back together which corrected the problem. The filter seal may not be seated properly or the air bleed valve may not be tight on top of the filter. Just a couple more areas to check...
I kinda wish it had been the start of the trouble, then I'd have a better idea of what to look for... unfortunately this all started maybe about a month ago, I only changed the cartridge couple days ago (it was quite old and I was hoping against hope that it might help even though it's on the pressure side). I might have a look at everything there again though just to triple-check every possibility. Thanks!
 
If the pump basket remains mostly full when you shut it off (for a long time) and you get a surge of air into the pump when you turn it on, it is likely a problem further up the suction line. Check the pool water level and check to see if the skimmer weir door is stuck.
 
If the pump basket remains mostly full when you shut it off (for a long time) and you get a surge of air into the pump when you turn it on, it is likely a problem further up the suction line. Check the pool water level and check to see if the skimmer weir door is stuck.
I checked it out when I got home today and noticed that the pump basket was actually fairy empty (no idea what changed there, though). The weir and water level are ok, and I'm not getting a whirlpool in the skimmer basket. The pump basket being empty made me look at the lid gasket for the dozenth time and it doesn't appear to be cracked/damaged/etc but it is relatively flat (should this be round, in cross section?) The lube I applied to it yesterday seemed to have all been squeezed off or maybe dried? I assume that should be mostly normal since it's a tight fit against the basket... and soaking it with hose and trying shaving cream doesn't seem to show a leak but I still wonder if it could be leaking at the gasket.

The air bubbles and vortex in the basket seem to be better and worse from day to day as I fiddle with it, which I'm not sure if that's coincidence or possibly a result of the lid being removed and replaced a bunch of times. So frustrating. Thanks for posting though, I appreciate everyone's input!
 
I checked it out when I got home today and noticed that the pump basket was actually fairy empty (no idea what changed there, though).
A pool's plumbing system should ideally hold its water, even when the system is off. When you see the pump basket empty after being off for a while, that could indicate a small pin-sized leak somewhere. Check both suction and pressure sides. Listen carefully when you turn the system on/off for hisses, squirts, etc. A filter pressure gauge or air relief valve can develop a tiny leak that you don't see losing water, but can let air "in" when the pump is off. So check everything closely. You might get lucky.
 
A pool's plumbing system should ideally hold its water, even when the system is off. When you see the pump basket empty after being off for a while, that could indicate a small pin-sized leak somewhere. Check both suction and pressure sides. Listen carefully when you turn the system on/off for hisses, squirts, etc. A filter pressure gauge or air relief valve can develop a tiny leak that you don't see losing water, but can let air "in" when the pump is off. So check everything closely. You might get lucky.
Yeah, I think I'm gonna try listening to it real quick right now (been letting it run for a bit after getting home to see how long it takes before bubbles start coming out of the return jets). I did look for spurts after turning it off and never found one (and during the daytime the concrete pad kinda helps since it would look darker even if I missed an actual spurt). I tried googling for strainer pot lids and I'm not finding anything that looks quite like what I have... I never paid too much attention (and that's on me) but the strainer lid and gasket could potentially be very old...
 

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