Pop ups not rising fully

[Rxinverstor]

Hi

I have an in ground pool (~9K gallons) that's cleaned by a Pentair variable speed pump and AA manufacturing heads controlled by in ground valve system.

I have the pump on a nightly schedule to run 7 hours with another 1 hour in the afternoon at 2750 rpm. Chlorine system

Problem I'm having is one circuit of heads (3) do not rise fully and as a result that part of the pool doesn't clean well. The valve properly opens the other 3 circuits and those heads rise as they should.

I can reach one of the heads on the circuit in question and if I give it a slight tug, it will extend fully and the other two heads immediately rise completely with me touching them.

I don't notice any "leakage" to other heads when the circuit in question is activated.

Problem must be in in valve correct?

Thanks!

 

[jblizzle]

From your description it sounds more like a resistance to the heads in the single zone that do not fully pop up than a problem in the valving. Since they appear to work fine if you touch them and get them to rise.
Perhaps there is a little debris in the heads of that zone making it harder for them to rise?

 

[Bama Rambler]

What is the distributor pressure during all the zone activations?
What is the filter pressure?

While it could be a bit of debris in the heads, I suspect that you need to bump the speed up a bit. That system takes a good bit of pressure to work properly.

 

[Rxinverstor]

What is the distributor pressure during all the zone activations?
What is the filter pressure?

While it could be a bit of debris in the heads, I suspect that you need to bump the speed up a bit. That system takes a good bit of pressure to work properly.

The filter pressure is about 12psi. Not sure how/where to read distributor pressure?

what do you suggest I increase the pump speed to? I was warned by the pool builder not to go too high as the filter can't handle the pressure.

I'll unscrew the heads and check for debris.

thanks for the response!

 

[jblizzle]

What filter do you have? What pump do you have? (Add all your pool info to your signature)
Is the 12psi at your filter? They are design up to 50psi, so no worries at this point.
There should be a pressure gauge on the domed valve distributor.

 

[Rxinverstor]

Robert: 9.5k IG pebblesheen pool, Pentair Intelliflo 2 VST, GV4 Heads, Pentair 420 Clean and Clear Cartridge Filter, 6 port 2" T Valve

Modeled my signature after yours, hopefully that contains the relevant info.

Yes, the 12psi is at the filter. I don't see any pressure gauge at the valve. They built mine really low. only the plastic lid is visible w/o a little digging. Would the valve be in plain sight or somewhere on the side of the housing? I may need to dig a bit if so.

 

[Catanzaro]

Can you please take a picture of the housing? There should be a pressure gauge on the housing. If this was my system, I would remove the lid, blow air through each port, and then blow air backwards to the system.

If this is like a Paramount system, you can try this to determine if you are not getting enough pressure as this may do the trick.

 

[jblizzle]

There is really no worries about your filter and running at higher speeds. The filter is plenty big.

 

[proavia]

A&A infloor system doesn't have a pressure gauge at the water distribution valve.

With a VS pump, you can probably get by with 1 or 2 two hour cleaning periods set 8-12 hours apart. The rest of the time you can run at a much lower rpm to skim and circulate the pool water. I have an early morning and late afternoon cleaning cycle set up - the other hours my pump runs, its at 1100 rpm.

Does the zone in question have more pop-ups than other zones? You may have to bump up the pump rpm a little. Try increasing the speed in 50 rpm increments and see if that improves the situation. If so, once you find that point, increase rpm another 50-100 to compensate for when your filter gets dirty.

Are you the original owner of the pool? If so, call A&A and they will assist you and may send someone out free of charge - under your original owner warranty.

That being said, there is possibly debris in one of the lines for that zone. Use the removal tool to remove each head one at a time and see if anything comes out of the opening. Also check each pop-up when you remove it for debris and function. Based on which pop-up heads were installed, you can also trade heads with other zones to see if the issue stays with the zone or the heads - just be sure to move heads with the same nozzle size. My system only has 2 nozzle sizes - the smaller one is only on my top step, all the others are the same..... but A&A has several different types of pop-ups.

See here to identify what type pop-up you have: Identify your swimming pool popups

 

[KDpoolguy]

Yes, the 12psi is at the filter. I don't see any pressure gauge at the valve. They built mine really low. only the plastic lid is visible w/o a little digging. Would the valve be in plain sight or somewhere on the side of the housing? I may need to dig a bit if so.

I have the A&A in floor as well, you can see specs in my signature also, but QC1 Heads, my heads get muddy gunk in and around them if they aren’t removed every swim season and hosed off. Remove the heads check a full rotation by pushing the spring up until it goes around 360, cycle the valve through the ports to blow out the ports and see how that does. My heads are 2 years old and gaskets are dying, so watch for those as well. Bypass water through bad gaskets could prevent a good seal and loss of pressure.

As Pro mentioned, he has an almost identical VS pump schedule as I. 2700rpm for 4 hours then throttle back to 1100rpm for 7 hours for skim and energy saving water turn-over at night, then for swim season summer afternoon run of 1.5 hours at 2500rpm just for a skim and quick clean.

 

[Bama Rambler]

12 PSI is pretty low for a popup head system. They require a certain amount of pressure to each head to get them to pop up properly. Cleaning the heads won't hurt anything, but I'd still bump the speed up a little at a time until all the heads in each circuit work correctly.

 

[Rxinverstor]

thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm out of town until Thursday but will remove the heads as suggested, clean and ensure proper rotation. I'll also check the gaskets for signs of wear.

I am the original owner. A&A will warranty the heads and valve for lifetime. I have four circuits each with 3 heads.

- - - Updated - - -

thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm out of town until Thursday but will remove the heads as suggested, clean and ensure proper rotation. I'll also check the gaskets for signs of wear.

I am the original owner. A&A will warranty the heads and valve for lifetime. I have four circuits each with 3 heads.

 

[KDpoolguy]

My filter pressure sits around 10-15 psi (when clean) and varies as it rotates through the ports.

One thing you may want to try also is increase the valve time, or time per station/port. If yours is a top-feed it’s on the top part, remove it and twist the valve using the two white ‘sticks’ and if it’s more open, more water bypasses and less water spins the gears and more time per station. Some of my pop ups stick as they age too.

A&A Manufacturing Top Feed Valve Speed Control
Google Image Result for https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71wcFPVFsiL._SX466_.jpg

 

[kadavis]

The GV4 head is a venturi style head, it was designed to run at a lower flow rate which your pool installer should have setup properly. I would take the head in question out and see that everything is in place and let it run a cycle or two with it out to make sure something isn't still in the line. If not sure put in a call to the builder and let him handle this

 

[Rxinverstor]

Was able to spend some time on this today.

One correction, the circuit in question has four heads. The remaining 3 circuits have 3 heads each.

I removed each of the 4 heads on the troubled circuit. No sign of any debris in the heads. The gaskets are all intact and appear OK as best I can tell. I ran the filter at 2750rpm with the four heads removed (one head at a time) to see if anything was flushed out. Nothing came out that I could tell.

I rinsed each head and manually operated them and moved up and advanced smoothly.

I reinstalled the heads and as suggested bumped the speed up to 2850 rpm. At that speed the circuit of 4 opened repeatedly. Perhaps the gasket(s) are wearing out and some water is seeping out and now a higher rpm is needed to get them opened.

Let me know your thoughts...

Me thinks my filter pressure gauge is goofed as it reads 10 psi (I incorrectly noted 12 psi in an earlier post) at 2850 rpm. At 1500 rpm it also reads 10 psi. Same goes for 3450 rpm.

Another question regarding the attached photos. The vertically hung valve/handle is for the discharge side of the filter. I'm not sure what it adjusts as no matter where I position it I do not notice any change in the pool operation (2850 rpm).View attachment 86374View attachment 86375View attachment 86376

 

[jblizzle]

I think the answer is that four heads is greater than three heads and requires more flow to operate properly. Therefore you need to set your pump speed so that that zone with four pop-ups works properly

 

[Bama Rambler]

Back off and take another picture of the vertical valve, so we can see where it's coming from and going to and we should be able to tell you what it's supposed to do.

I agree with JB, more heads require more flow.

 

[KDpoolguy]

All of this input is good, heck even for my setup. This is difficult to troubleshoot.
Not sure about your specific heads, but mine and others I’ve seen have springs that loose their rebound over time and there’s no lubricant, so it’s many times plastic in plastic friction if the pop-up is off center from its outer housing. If Upping the throttle on the VS pump helps, that’s all good.

I’m not an original owner to my A&A system, so I have to buy new heads, but occasionally they stuck but it was sand or dirt (not always easily seen) that a good high pressure hose off took care of-fine sand is an issue here in the desert. The gaskets are failing if you get a lot of black on your fingers after touching them. A light smear of silicone pool gasket lube helped extend their life and seal.

 

[Rxinverstor]

Thanks. I increased the speed to 2950 rpm during the cleaning cycle overnight. Reduced the midday speed per earlier examples to 1500 rpm. At 1500 rpm the heads don't open but I'm assuming that's to be expected as the goal is just to move the water and run the skimmer.

I attached a different picture of the discharge side of the filter. Any insight the group can provide is helpful. The valve on the left runs a water feature, its the one of the right that I can't figure.

 

[jblizzle]

Do you have wall returns? Perhaps the right valve controls what goes to the floor and what goes to the wall. If so, you could isolate the floor and get by with lower pump speed if you wanted.