Why does everyone on the planet besides our little family suggest a TA of 80-120 and even above?

[Andrew Montreal]

Hi all,

It seems that the only place I found the advise of keeping TA down to even as low as 50ppm is here… though more ideally in the range of 70-100 perhaps. Everyone else is suggesting higher levels, from Jacuzzi to Frog, to Swim Univeristy who suggest 100-150ppm!

Is everyone wrong? Are we the chosen few who know the truth? What is going on?

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[ajw22]

People ask that enough that the answer is in the Wiki...

TA - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Manufacturers TA recommendation are often 100-140 for TA while Pool Math says 50-90 for TA.

One key item that differs is that the industry typically suggests using chlorine “pucks” which are very acidic while TFP suggests liquid chlorine or a salt water generator, both which tend to see an increase of pH. The industry tends to suggest a higher TA level as this prevents crashing a users pH level when using pucks while our lower level TA tends to greatly slow the rate of pH increase thus using less acid to maintain your pool

 

[Donldson]

On top of the answer in the wiki, it's also just copy and paste. Everyone you mentioned just copy and pastes the standard chart with zero thought.

If you tried calling any of their customer service the discussion would go like this:
"Hi, I'm wondering why you recommend TA of 100-150"
"Yes, the TA keeps your pH stable"
"Ok, but my pH is actually very unstable at those levels and I have to keep adding acid, which lowers the TA so I have to add baking soda. But when I let my TA drop to 60 my pH is very stable"
"Oh no, you can't keep your TA that low! That will cause your pH to be unstable!"
"But my pH is stable there and unstable at 100"
"You can't keep your TA that low, it's not safe!"
"Why not?"
"Because your pH will be unstable"
Repeat until you get tired and hang up.

 

[Andrew Montreal]

On top of the answer in the wiki, it's also just copy and paste. Everyone you mentioned just copy and pastes the standard chart with zero thought.

If you tried calling any of their customer service the discussion would go like this:
"Hi, I'm wondering why you recommend TA of 100-150"
"Yes, the TA keeps your pH stable"
"Ok, but my pH is actually very unstable at those levels and I have to keep adding acid, which lowers the TA so I have to add baking soda. But when I let my TA drop to 60 my pH is very stable"
"Oh no, you can't keep your TA that low! That will cause your pH to be unstable!"
"But my pH is stable there and unstable at 100"
"You can't keep your TA that low, it's not safe!"
"Why not?"
"Because your pH will be unstable"
Repeat until you get tired and hang up.

Hilarious!

That reminds me of when I mentioned to a store employee that Dichlor kept raising my CYA and I needed another solution. He kept repeating the same stuff. On the other hand, someone from another shop, discussed the issue with me for about five minutes, then conceded that what I was saying made perfect sense and showed me to the liquid chlorine in the store.

 

[Andrew Montreal]

People ask that enough that the answer is in the Wiki...

TA - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Manufacturers TA recommendation are often 100-140 for TA while Pool Math says 50-90 for TA.

One key item that differs is that the industry typically suggests using chlorine “pucks” which are very acidic while TFP suggests liquid chlorine or a salt water generator, both which tend to see an increase of pH. The industry tends to suggest a higher TA level as this prevents crashing a users pH level when using pucks while our lower level TA tends to greatly slow the rate of pH increase thus using less acid to maintain your pool

Thank you for the link.

And there is no issue with damage to the plumbing or otherwise, like when the pH is too high or too low? A TA of 50ppm will not adversely affect metal over the years?

 

[ajw22]

TA has no effect on anything other then how rapidly the pool water pH rises.

I suggest you study the TA/pH relationship as described in PH TA Relationship - Further Reading

pH is a separate discussion from TA.

Low pH is acidic and can corrode metals. The only metal you likely have in your pool plumbing is your heater.

High pH does not damage anything but can contribute to high CSI causing scaling.

Keep your pH in the 7s and follow TFP Recommended Levels and none of that should be a concern.

PH - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

What Are My Ideal Pool Levels?

Use our tool to find ideal chemical levels for any swimming pool. Check TFP recommended levels on pH, free chlorine, cyanuric acid, and more.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Gebo]

I was confused as heck. I used to manage a commercial plaster 90k gallon pool. So I had to unlearn quite a bit. CH, alkalinity, CYA, chlorine pucks, sand filters, backwash, etc

The one thing I have learned is my pH in “my” hot tub didn’t stabilize til I got my alkalinity down to 60. I was a very slow learner. YouTube is not always the best instructor. Your best instructors are right here.

 

[Homebrewale]

I keep my TA at 70. Last pool season, I didn't add one drop of muriatic acid the whole season.

 

[duraleigh]

Are we the chosen few who know the truth?

Probably.

I think Pythagoras was the only one who thought the earth was round.......someone has to start the ball rolling and I think it is US at TFP

 

[DavidLast]

I have been running low and lower TA for years and years and years. It is cutting across the norm of the pool industry and an interesting conversation to have in the off-season as to why. However, most don't want to know. I guess a lot of people in 'Pool Stores' have a job that pays, and that's the end of their interest, really. They simply do what they are taught.

 

[Andrew Montreal]

Thanks for all the input. My present measurements are:

TA - 80
pH - 7.6
CH - 130

I keep my spa on the hot side… during use it’s a 104 and I let it slide down to around 98 at the most when not in use.

Might let my TA slide downward slightly.

Curious to see if these kinds of numbers will become the norm eventually.

 

[JamesW]

CO2(air) <-> CO2(dissolved in water) + H20 <-> H2CO3 <-> H + HCO3 <-> 2H + CO3

The 3 main components are carbon dioxide, bicarbonate and carbonate.

Bicarbonate provides the buffering.

Carbonate provides the ion required for calcium carbonate saturation (CSI).

So, the TA factors into the CSI, but you can change the pH and/or calcium hardness to adjust the CSI as needed.

Carbon dioxide gas causes pH rise due to offgassing.

This is the part that 99.9% of industry people do not understand.

All of these are in equilibrium based on the pH.

Higher TA causes higher CO2 and higher carbonate.

Because the industry people do not understand the role of CO2, they do not understand why a higher TA causes the pH to be unstable (pH rise).

Their logic is that the higher TA provides more buffering, which is true, but buffering is way overrated because the pH does not just wildly swing around as many people think it does.

You have to add acid or base to move the pH and if you are not adding acid or base, then the pH is not going to move except for rising due to carbon dioxide offgassing.

 

[Gebo]

Well said and explained. Thanks!

 

[phonedave]

I keep my TA at 70. Last pool season, I didn't add one drop of muriatic acid the whole season.

I don't keep my TA anywhere. I keep my pH at 7.2. Eventually my TA gets the message and comes along for the ride.

 

[A.O.]

Thanks for all the input. My present measurements are:

TA - 80
pH - 7.6
CH - 130

I keep my spa on the hot side… during use it’s a 104 and I let it slide down to around 98 at the most when not in use.

Might let my TA slide downward slightly.

Curious to see if these kinds of numbers will become the norm eventually.

Close to where I'm at, my TA right now is a bit high at 50, I like 40 ish more, PH about the same and I don't even keep track of the CH, my well water is very soft, and my tub and pool are fiberglass so it won't be eating my gunnite or whatever. I keep my tub hot as well, its 104 24/7/365... always ready for use.

 

[Andrew Montreal]

Close to where I'm at, my TA right now is a bit high at 50, I like 40 ish more, PH about the same and I don't even keep track of the CH, my well water is very soft, and my tub and pool are fiberglass so it won't be eating my gunnite or whatever. I keep my tub hot as well, its 104 24/7/365... always ready for use.

I am considering letting my TA drop to 70 and see how that balances the pH. Lately I have only had to add very slight amounts of pH down. I put in 8 grams yesterday to bring it down ever so slightly. But perhaps with a TA of 70, we won’t need to.

I am still using dichlor so there is a natural pH drop due to the dichlor. But when I switch to liquid chlorine, as many have suggested and as you do, I will probably bring the TA down even more.

So funny how far off the accepted norms are for hot tub chemistry. It blows my mind.

 

[A.O.]

I am considering letting my TA drop to 70 and see how that balances the pH. Lately I have only had to add very slight amounts of pH down. I put in 8 grams yesterday to bring it down ever so slightly. But perhaps with a TA of 70, we won’t need to.

I am still using dichlor so there is a natural pH drop due to the dichlor. But when I switch to liquid chlorine, as many have suggested and as you do, I will probably bring the TA down even more.

So funny how far off the accepted norms are for hot tub chemistry. It blows my mind.

Yep, and it will keep your pool/hot tub happy

 

[Gebo]

With my limited actual experience, at this point in time, I am persuaded TA is “the” key to hot tub water balancing. When you find “your” sweet spot you will become a happy tubber.