Where did my CYA go? Help with CC.

[Guest]

Hi! We shocked to 35 last night and then again this morning. Our test results right now (5 hours
after shocking) are as follows:

FC 20
CC 1.5
PH 7.2
TA 110
CYA almost 30 (we guessed at 25)


We took sample to pool company and here are their results (we ran our tests as soon as we got back
from the pool company):

Ammonia 0
FC 2.4
CC 7.6
PH 7.1
TA 0
CH 173
CY 8
Copper 0.3 (the copper was 0 on the July 18. We put EZ Pool in one more time on the 19th)
Iron 0
TDS 1610 (the TDS was 800 on July 18. It has been climbing over the last 2 weeks. We put EZ Pool in one more time on the 19th)
Ignore TDS, it is not really a valid measurement. It's not the total dissolved solids that are important but the levels of the different ionic species. IF your TDS is mostly salt it has no effect on the pool, howver if it is cyanurates and calcium and sulfates then you need to drain and refill to get them down if they are too high. It is normal for TDS to increase in a pool over time. Monitor your individual parameters like CYA and CH and if one of those is too high then deal with it by water replacement.
They are using the LaMotte Waterlink system with little vials that are put into a machine and read, correct? I have the LaMotte certification on this system so I can answer some of the points below for youl
Here is what they told us at the pool company.
1. There is so much chlorine that it has bleached out the water and the copper reading
isn't a true reading. Looking at previous test results, they feel the copper is really
at a normal level. He knew we had put a sequestrant in about 10 days ago. He said
with all the chlorine, there were no sequestrants remaining.
The DPD test has bleached out so they are correct about the chlorine. Your FAS-DPD test is more accuracte, believe it for both FC and CC!
As far as the copper, they are right that the high chlorine has probably destroyed much of the sequestrant you put in so you now have a much truer copper reading. Remember, all sequestrant does is temporarily 'deactivate' the copper so it does not cause problems. The sequestrant breaks down over time due to chlorine and sunlight. Your copper is at the low end for algae control (.3- .6 ppm) and high enough to stain or turn hair green. It means that you have to add seqestrant on a regular basis and be very careful NOT to let your pH rise above about 7.8 EVER. I suspect that your actual copper level is a bit higher than .3 ppm. High FC levels will not interfere with the copper test.

2. He said the TA probably wasn't true, again because there was so much chlorine in it.
The TA has bleached out because of the high chlorine so the thest is worthless. In fact, this test will only work if the chlorine is below 3 ppm according to LaMotte tech support! Your titration test for TA will be accurate, however. You might need to add 1-2 extra drops of the first reagent (chlorine neutralizer) and the color might go from blue to pale yellow instead of green to red but the results are still valid. Once again, believe your test!

As far as the CH and CYA tests, I never liked the CH test in this system. It will read low when the CH is near the upper limit of the meter. I have seen many cases where this system said the CH was around 350 ppm but when titrated it was well over 600 ppm! It is a known limitation of the test.

The CYA test is usually on the money but they have had many bad batches of CYA reagent that read low. I know this because I have had to return several to LaMotte over the past few years for replacement. Same with the TA reagents vial. They have had quality control issues. Once again believe your test results!
3. He tested the ammonia and it was 0.
THAT is good news. How did he test the ammonia? Strips or liquid reagents?
We feel comfortable with their ammonia and PH readings, but we don't feel comfortable with
the rest of their readings. We feel like our readings are right on. We can't test for the copper, so
we don't know what to think about it. All of our previous copper tests there had been .09 or below.
The only reason we put the sequestrant in was because the pool company said to. They came out and looked at the water. They thought it looked like the water was a metals color. The color did
not come out with the sequestrant. After shocking 2 or 3 times (only to 10), the water became clear
and has been clear ever since.

Again, the pool looks absolutely perfect, clear, sparkling. The water temp. is 81.

If draining is the only way out, let us know and we will start today.

Thanks again for all the help. We really appreciate it!
Thanks!
Debbie

 

[tgramm]

.. We have not added any water all summer.

Unless you've had 100% humidity you can count on having about 1/4-1/2 an inch a day in evaporation in tempatures >80 degrees.

Many homeowners don't realize thier pool has an autofill, it's just that other skimmer lid that they never look under. Or some pools have electronic levelors. All autofill must be mounted at water level, but I've seen the actual float / sensors on complete opposite sides of properties before. Making them hard to find.

In once case the autofill (float type) was mounted over 200 feet from the pool and completly covered by sand, I had to contact the builder from 8 years ago to find it, to resolve the issue of constant dirt comming from the autofill line.

I can't imagine a builder not putting an autofill of some sort on a pool. At least in this area pools without autofills are decades old.

 

[Guest]

Autofills are not that common here in N FL. My pool doews not have one and it's just going into it's 5th year and the vast majority of my old customer base did not have them either.

 

[debrann]

We appreciate everyone's help. We are making progress, but not there yet. There have been so many helpful posts. Here are the answers to some of the questions that have been asked.

The pool company appears to be using the LaMotte System. They use the small vials, as you described.

Our test results have not varied too much, so I agree that our tests are probably more accurate with the high level of FC.

The ammonia test was done with reagents. Today it was 0 and the water appeared clear in the test tube. A week or so ago, they tested the ammonia. They forgot to give us or record the results, but the water in the test tube was a dark green. I am assuming that means it was high, since today at 0 it was clear. This is just guessing on my part, because I have no idea.

If we have an autofill, we do not know where it is and it does not show up in the builders plans. We have had several inches of rain every week and this is an almost record cool summer here in central Indiana. I think I heard it is the 2nd coolest summer in like 50 years. Don't quote me on this, but what I do know is that we've had to run the heater several times a week with the solar cover on, to be able to swim (to get the water to 80 degrees). We will try to research with the person who built it and find out (the pool is 1 year old), so that we will know for sure.

I hope I answered everyones questions. If not, let me know and I will do my best to answer.

We really appreciate everyone taking the time to help us. It is so wonderful to have the pool looking beautiful again. I know we aren't quite there, but we will be soon.

Thanks again!
Debbie

 

[Guest]

The ammonia test was done with reagents. Today it was 0 and the water appeared clear in the test tube. A week or so ago, they tested the ammonia. They forgot to give us or record the results, but the water in the test tube was a dark green. I am assuming that means it was high, since today at 0 it was clear. This is just guessing on my part, because I have no idea.

Your ammonia was high a week ago. Perhaps the high chlorine was interfering with the ammonai test also but peristant CC after disappearing CYA is a sure sign of ammonia in the water AND the fact that you still have persistant CC points to ammonia still present. Dark green indicates a farirly high ammonia level, btw. No ammona would be a yellow color. If the water was clear they did not test for ammonia or the high chlorine interfered with the test.
Patience and a LOT of chlorine will fix it. Keep shocking!

 

[debrann]

8 a.m.
FC 15 We shocked it last night
CC 2
PH 7.2
TA 110
Clear & Sparkling

Thanks for the reply. Due to our schedules and the fact that the pool is looking wonderful again , our plan is to shock it hard every evening after the sun goes down (if this will work? ). Next weekend we can shock more often, if we still need to. Every morning and evening we will check FC, CC, and PH. We will do other readings every other day or so. We will keep a very close watch on PH, so we won't get staining. It feels so great to be a tiny bit in control over what is happening in our pool. We felt so helpless there for awhile. We will keep up on everything and watch closely. As long as everything stays like it is and the tests look good, we probably won't post until next weekend. Let us know if there is something flawed in our plan for the week. Again, we really appreciate everyone's help and information. I think I'm going to pool school this week. My husband has already been through most of it, so I need to get caught up!!!!
Thanks so much!
Debbie

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

Nope, sounds good - it's really all you can do at this point.

Keep us posted.

 

[reebok]

Thanks for the reply. Due to our schedules and the fact that the pool is looking wonderful again , our plan is to shock it hard every evening after the sun goes down (if this will work? ).

with a cc of 2 you should be losing chlorine overnight, so add more in the morning. using the shock process outlined here is really difficult without adding chlorine at least twice a day, as much as once per hour.

 

[debrann]

I was mistaken about the color of the ammonia sample yesterday (Sorry). Bob, my husband, said it was definitely yellow. I must have looked before they put the chemical in. But, I guess that means our ammonia is okay. I didn't mean to give bad information. Thanks for all the help!
Debbie

 

[Guest]

I still think you have ammonia and the high chlorine levels are interfering with the test, based on your other test results. They are consistant with ammonia in the water.

 

[duraleigh]

I agree with waterbear that ammonia has been an issue in this pool.

We have seen this process occur over the winter where the loss of CYA seems to stem from an algae laden pool. If I am following all this correctly, this pool experienced CYA loss quite rapidly and during swim season. I can't recall that ever being reported on the forum.

 

[debrann]

Since you haven't seen this happen during the pool season before, I will give you the history of how all this came down.

The CYA had been around 100 ever since we had opened the pool May 20 or so. We didn't change the pool to EZ pool for probably a month and it was clear and beautiful before the EZ pool. We put EZ pool in for 4 weeks and lost the CYA during that time. The first 2 weeks on EZ pool, we kept a normal chlorine level like we had all summer. We had children in the pool and didn't want to take any changes until we were sure the EZ pool was working properly. Of course, the water turned turquoise and cloudy when we went to the one chlorine stick a week like they suggest with EZ pool. We are on the BBB system now. The pool is crystal clear and beautiful. . . but we are still working on the CC and watching the PH closely because of the copper. We are slowly trying to get the CYA to 40 or a little more. No more EZ pool for us!

I hope this makes sense and maybe will help others see what can happen when you go to a system without chlorine. We will NEVER do that again. We are BBB all the way!
Thanks for everything!
Debbie

 

[frustratedpoolmom]

It happened to Richard, of all people. He posted about it in the Spring.

 

[PaulR]

His story is here.

 

[debrann]

It sure looks like our pool did the same as Richard's. Only our problem went on longer, since we tried working through it with the EZ pool system first. We definitely had 0 chlorine readings, since with the EZ pool you only put in one chlorine stick a week (big mistake ). Once we started the BBB, it has improved and now looks crystal clear & beautiful.
We had 6 inches of rain here on Tuesday, which changed the PH. I drained about 8 inches out of the pool, so that should help reduce the copper. The PH went from a 7.4 to a 8.1 in 6 hours. We have that under control and are at 7.2.

8.5.09 6 a.m
FC 17.5
CC 1.5
PH 7.2
TA 100

8.5.09 6 p.m
FC 11.5
CC 1.5
PH 7.2
TA 90
CYA 30 (added 2 cups of CYA after testing)
CH 390
Added 2 gal HTH 10% Chlorine

8.6.09 7 a.m
FC 25.5
CC 1.0
PH 7.3
TA 90

8.6.09 7:30 p.m.
FC 11.5
CC 1.5
PH 7.2
TA 90
Added 2 gal HTH 10% Chlorine

We are still not getting the CC to <.5. The lowest it has been is 1.0 (and only a few times). It hangs in there around 1.5 most of the time.
Hopefully we will get there soon. Thanks for all the help. All of Richard's posts were very informative and helpful to us.
We appreciate everyone who is taking time to help us out with this.
Thanks,
Debbie

 

[debrann]

Here are our test results:

8-7-09 7:30 p.m.
FC 14.5 CC 1.5 ( at 28 drops on the FC there was just barely a hint of pink, so it hasn't changed much) We did not add anything.

8-8-09 7:45 a.m. (no sun on pool)
FC 14 CC 1.5 PH 7.3

We understand that the FC held over night, but the CC has been staying right around 1.5 and not lowering.

Let us know what we should do.
Thank you!
Debbie

 

[duraleigh]

Hi, Debbie,

That your FC held overnight indicates you have nothing left in your pool that needs killing!! :lol: :lol:

If I remember, your CYA is about 30-40 so I would suggest you let your FC drift down close to what's recommended on the FC/CYA chart (4-6ppm) but then maintain it just a little higher than that for the next week.......I would suggest about 6-8ppm.

So, bring your FC to 8ppm each evening and then let it drift down the entire next day. The next evening, it should be around 5-6 (I'm hoping) and then bring it right back up to 8ppm

Keep your pool uncovered and I believe your CC's will go to .5 soon. If not, one of the chem gurus will have to chime in and help.

Once your CC's go down to .5ppm, let the FC drift down into the normal range according to the FC/CYA chart and you should have a troublefree pool.

Keep us posted.

 

[debrann]

Good morning!

Our water is beautiful and crystal clear. We have been bringing the FC to 8 each evening and leaving the pool uncovered. It looks like we are there. We will keep bringing the FC to 8 each evening for the next few days to make sure the CC stays at .5. After maintaining FC 8 for a few days, we will drop to normal maintenance levels. Here are our test results:

8.10.09 8 a.m FC 13 CC 1.0
8.10.09 8 p.m. FC 4.5 CC 1.5 PH 7.3 add 2 qt 1 pt 6%
8.11.09 8 a.m. FC 8.5 CC 1.0
8.11.09 8 p.m. FC 3.5 CC 1.0 PH 7.4 add 3 qt 1 pt 6%
8.12.09 8 a.m. FC 8.5 CC .5 Yeah!!!!!!!

We appreciate everyone's help so much!
I just want to say that we will be saving so much money by using this website and BBB method. Our water is better than it has ever been. I swam when the FC was 13 and the water did not feel harsh. My sister's family came to swim in our pool. My sister has had a pool for years. They ask her why my pool was so much cleaner than her pool (that said, my sister's pool is always well kept and clean). Considering my pool was green 3 weeks ago, that was a wonderful comment for me to hear and quite a complement to your troublefreepool website. Again . . . We thank all of you for your help!

Thanks!
Debbie :rendeer: we've been watching Christmas movies!!!

 

[debrann]

FC 5.5 CC <.5 PH 7.5 TA 100 CYA 40 84 degrees

Hi! Everyone! Our pool looks beautiful and is doing great! Our CC is staying well below .5 all the time, so I think we have made it through this issue. The FC at 5.5 was taken in the morning and by evening, on a sunny day, it is 3.0. It is so nice to not be worrying about the pool anymore. Thank you for all your help. The BBB system is working great for us. I am so thankful that we found this website.
Thanks again for all the help! This will be my last post on this issue.
Debbie

 

[Butterfly]

We're glad you found TFP too, and congrats on your beautiful, balanced pool

Have we seen a pic of your pool yet? :-D