Was doing some work on my solar panels and noticed there is a lot of water in the panels even after the solar valve and pump is off. When it first turns off I hear water coming down and back to the pool but not a whole lot. Then I attach a hose to the manual release valve and a lot of water comes out. Is this normal? I would imagine there shouldn’t be much water left if everything is working. How can I test if the vacuum relief valve is working properly? Thank you!
Water stuck in solar panels
- Thread starter dailo
- Start date
- May 3, 2007
- 17,369
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
It really depends on how the panels were installed. Most importantly, does the water always flow downhill from the VRV to the pool? In other words, are there any local high spots where water can get trapped?
The panels are slanted on the roof so I would think water can’t really be trapped anywhere. The VRF is in the top left corner in this pic, which is furthest away from the equipment pad. Total of 12 panels. When I open the valve takes about 45 minutes before water stops coming out, so seems like quite a bit of water stays up on the roof.
Attachments
- May 3, 2007
- 17,369
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Have you measured how much water comes out?
The spigot will trap some water just based upon how it is setup.
Also, have you used a level to see if the horizontal pipe is actually slanted downward (not just visually)?
How about a picture of the other side?
The spigot will trap some water just based upon how it is setup.
Also, have you used a level to see if the horizontal pipe is actually slanted downward (not just visually)?
How about a picture of the other side?
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,032
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
My VRV makes a croaking sound, so that reminds me that it's working. And like yours, my panel's feeder pipes are slanted, so they drain almost completely, so it sounds like your panels were installed the same way. Do you hear the VRV when the system goes off?
You could always get to your VRV, ask someone to shut down the system, and then just unscrew the VRV. If water then drains out like it didn't before, then that's likely the culprit. Have some teflon tape with you, so that you can replace the VRV until you can order a new one. But now that it's heating up outside, if that's the problem, you shouldn't use your solar system until you fix the VRV. The weight of the water pulling on hot PVC can crumple the pipes.
Another possibility, is the three-way solar valve. Mine is a special type, called a drain-down solar valve (or something like that). It acts like a regular valve while the filter pump is running, but once the pump goes off, there is a component within the valve that releases (or opens?) and allows the water from the roof to drain through the valve. Assuming yours is the same type of valve, if that drain-down component has stopped working (or maybe got clogged?), then that would trap the water on the roof. I'm not quite sure how to troubleshoot that, as I've never opened up my valve to see what all that looks like. But after checking the VRV, you might open up the solar valve and see what ya see...
Water on the roof comes down through two paths. The panels and the pipe that feeds them drain through the drain-down valve. The water in the pipe that exits the panels drains through a different path. Typically there are two manual drain spigots, one for each path. Do you have two? As suggested, we might be better able to help with some good photos of your plumbing.
You could always get to your VRV, ask someone to shut down the system, and then just unscrew the VRV. If water then drains out like it didn't before, then that's likely the culprit. Have some teflon tape with you, so that you can replace the VRV until you can order a new one. But now that it's heating up outside, if that's the problem, you shouldn't use your solar system until you fix the VRV. The weight of the water pulling on hot PVC can crumple the pipes.
Another possibility, is the three-way solar valve. Mine is a special type, called a drain-down solar valve (or something like that). It acts like a regular valve while the filter pump is running, but once the pump goes off, there is a component within the valve that releases (or opens?) and allows the water from the roof to drain through the valve. Assuming yours is the same type of valve, if that drain-down component has stopped working (or maybe got clogged?), then that would trap the water on the roof. I'm not quite sure how to troubleshoot that, as I've never opened up my valve to see what all that looks like. But after checking the VRV, you might open up the solar valve and see what ya see...
Water on the roof comes down through two paths. The panels and the pipe that feeds them drain through the drain-down valve. The water in the pipe that exits the panels drains through a different path. Typically there are two manual drain spigots, one for each path. Do you have two? As suggested, we might be better able to help with some good photos of your plumbing.
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Thank you for all the suggestions, I will have to try and get up on the roof and take a closer look. Looking at the specs for the panels looks like each one can hold 6 gallons, so going to ball park maybe 80 gallons total including the water in the headers. I don't know the exact amount, but I know it can easily fill 3 x 5 Gallon buckets so going to say 15+ gallons is left on the roof at least which seems high.
Attachments
Thank you for the info, I will give that a try also. I just have a 3 way Jandy Valve on the inlet and a Jandy Check Valve on the outlet. I guess I can try removing the Check Valve to make sure that it isn't too tight and maybe it isn't opening up all the way when the pump turns off. It is definitely open when the pump and solar valve is on.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,032
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I might have been editing my post as you were replying. Did you catch the part I added about shooting us some pics of your plumbing?
- May 3, 2007
- 17,369
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
There is a fundamental flaw in that design in that the bottom horizontal pipes are tied together so if the panels are tilted toward the drain point (spigot high), the bottom panel headers are actually uphill to drain which will trap water. Normally, you want to feed the bottom header directly from the drain point and loop the top header. This allows for more efficient draining.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,032
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Yah, Mark, I spotted some trouble, too. The slant I was referring to either doesn't exist, or is very slight. The supply line looks to be near parallel to the roof's edge. My system slants more than that, and in two directions (this might be what you were describing). My lower manifolds slant one way, relative to the roof's ridge line, and then the supply pipe slants the other way. So if you looked at them from above, they form a very narrow V. Mine is setup like the OP's, in that my supply pipe runs along the bottom, but it's not tied to the manifolds like that. I'd have to go look, but I'd say at one end they are about 2" apart, at the other more like 12" or so.
Additionally, I'm seeing some sag in both the lower manifolds and the supply pipe, which will also trap some amount of water. Not a lot, but there might be 1/4"-1/2" laying in each manifold and in some areas of the supply pipe.
Additionally, I'm seeing some sag in both the lower manifolds and the supply pipe, which will also trap some amount of water. Not a lot, but there might be 1/4"-1/2" laying in each manifold and in some areas of the supply pipe.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,032
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
The other problem with the supply line being strapped to the manifolds like that is the expansion. Everything up there is expanding and contracting, at least once a day, potentially several times a day. And in all four directions (width and height), and probably not at the same amount. Tying the manifolds to the supply line means the supply line and the panels are fighting each other as they move around. It's not an insignificant amount of movement, either.
That explains why a bunch of the zip ties are broken
. I inherited all of this equipment last year when I first moved into the house, so learning about it as I go. Right now I am dealing with some leaks in the panels, so was trying to figure out why it was leaking so much water after the pump was turned off. Is it worth trying to have the system fixed so that the draining is more optimal? I've been trying to get the company that originally installed out to make some repairs, but they keep dodging me after 3 months so I am going to have to look for another contractor to do the work so maybe I could have them make some changes. The solar has been turned off for the last few months as I wait for repairs, but it is supposed to be really warm this weekend so was trying to warm up the pool a bit so the kids could go for a dip.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,032
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Took a snap shot for you. My panels have more slant than I remembered. Compare the top manifold with the roof tiles just above it. Then look at the "V" of my lower manifold and the supply pipe.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,032
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I stopped using zip ties outside, they don't hold up to the sun, even the UV rated ones. I started using stainless steel wire everywhere instead, but certainly the stress of the movement is tearing them apart as well. I gotta run to an appointment, I'll check in with ya later...That explains why a bunch of the zip ties are broken
Thank you for the pic, I have a better understanding of what you meant now. Seems like the installers strapped the two pipes below together, which obviously isn't optimal. I'll have to try removing the VRV and see if any more water drains down, because way too much water is still in the system to just be from the pipes.
I noticed that after the pump is off if I open the Solar Valve open a lot more water gets purged out of the system. Is it expected/normal behavior for the solar valve to be kept closed when the filter stops? Not sure if I would be able to program from my Aqualogic controller to open the solar valve for a period of time after the pump turns off.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,032
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
That's a good troubleshooting step.
I would say that depends on (1) how old the panels are and (2) how they are connected to the roof. I expect my panels to last about 20 years, give or take. If yours are old, how much money are you willing to put into them for potentially just a few more years, as opposed to putting the repair money into new panels instead. Do you have any idea how old they are? I installed my system myself, and saved about $7K, so if you're handy, it's not to bad (though somewhat dangerous.
And how they are attached might make a difference, too. Does the panel attached to the roofing material, or penetrate it to connect to the rafters. If you move the panels, they'll have to make new penetrations and fix the old ones. That could be a can of worms depending on what type of roof you have and how old it is. Sorry, lots of variables to that question.
When I asked my panel vendor (a local installer as well) about slanting my panels, they said "Nah, we don't do that." So it's not a surprise yours were short-cutted in that way. The slant is probably more of an issue for climates that have harder freezes, but I didn't want to take the chance so I slanted mine, as it does freeze here some.
Yes, normal. The valve moves to close off water going to the roof. That's what shuts down the solar heating system. That happens whether the filter pump is done for the day or not. The controller determines when to send water to the roof, which might be multiple times per day, and then shuts everything down at the end the filter pump run. At that point the valve would close to the roof and it would trap water up there. Which is the purpose of the solar-drain-down three-way valve. It "senses" when the filter pump is on, and acts like a normal three-way, either bypassing the panels or sending water to them, based on the controller's commands. At the end of the filter pump run, the pressure in the valve is released and the drain-down component opens up to let water through. That water drains out thorough the return side of your plumbing (or should). Seeing more water coming down from the roof when you manually open the solar valve would be expected, as you're essentially widening the opening. The drain-down opening is much smaller, so takes longer than working the valve.
I don't know if you could program your valve to open after the pump is off. But technically that's a kludge work-around because it's not designed to have to do so. That's the job of the drain-down valve. It's not unheard of that you would be missing the drain-down three-way, and a normal three-way was used, either by mistake or ignorance. When I bought my parts I was first sold a normal three-way and was just lucky that I noticed it before gluing it in. So it happens.
I would maybe first try to ascertain what valve you have. Can you find a part/model numbers on it? Can you look all around it? If so, you could look up what you have. And if it is a drain-down, you could get a hold of a parts drawing and then open it open to see what's going on. Identify and inspect the drain down port to see if it looks right and works right. That step and the VRV step and the check valve inspection, might turn up the problem.
Did it ever not have this problem. Did it work better previously, or are you just discovering this? As I mentioned, it's quite possible you had a bad install (or maybe it was a DIY job) and whoever did it didn't know to slant the panels and use a drain-down three way... good luck. Keep us in the loop. Do post pics of your pad plumbing, maybe something will turn up.
I am not sure if the system ever worked as it was supposed to, never really looked at the solar portition until I started getting leaks. Doing some more research, it looks like Pentair has a drain down diverter with a built in check valve but what is installed on my system is just a normal Jandy 3 way diverter. Seems like others on this forum have recommended drilling a small hole in the diverter to solve this problem or using a non-positive diverter so water can get through. Problem with this is I don't have an isolation valve after this to prevent water from going up the system when the valve is off, so I guess I will need to install one of those before it gets cold again. I will test again later how much water comes out of the spigot after I leave the valve open and see if that is the issue.
I have been trying to get the original installer of the solar system to come out and do some repairs, but I guess the job isn't big enough for them as I haven't been able to get them to come out for over 3 months. Maybe it is better that way as it seems they didn't really do the right thing or took some shortcuts. The system was installed about 8 years ago, so still too new to rip it out so I can work around the issues for now until it really starts to fall apart. Thank you again for all the help!
I have been trying to get the original installer of the solar system to come out and do some repairs, but I guess the job isn't big enough for them as I haven't been able to get them to come out for over 3 months. Maybe it is better that way as it seems they didn't really do the right thing or took some shortcuts. The system was installed about 8 years ago, so still too new to rip it out so I can work around the issues for now until it really starts to fall apart. Thank you again for all the help!
Attachments
- Feb 6, 2015
- 6,540
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
The first picture shows the actuator for the solar valve. There is no telling if the actual solar valve has a pinhole drilled in the diverter or not without disassembling the valve. You would need to remove the actuator and the valve lid to get to the diverter.
With the pinhole in the diverter and solar off, only a small amount of water will go up the solar inlet pipe. It probably won't be enough water to even fill the pipe to the solar panel inlet. And it will drain out again once the pump is off. Water will take the path of least resistance and flow through the larger return lines much easier than through the pinhole and up toward the roof.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,032
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Well, if you're sure that solar valve is not a drain-down type, then your system has never worked like it's supposed to. I would recommend you get one installed. It does look to be a Jandy valve. Keep in mind there are two components there, the actuator (the big grey rectangle) and the valve itself, which is under the actuator and has the pipes running in and out of it. The handle, which is marked Jandy, typically belongs to the valve originally, they install the actuator between the valve body and the valve handle. That's all likely, but ya never know what some previous guy might have used or done.
I would call Jandy and see if they make a solar drain-down valve. And then I'd ask them if the guts of it can be mounted in the body of their standard three-way. That would make it a simple DIY job. Just a matter of a handful of screws, no plumbing or gluing.
As to the "drill a hole" method, I know of it but have no experience with it. And it may be that your Jandy had that done. You're not going to know for sure until you take it apart, so that's still on your list of troubleshooting. It would not be my first choice, as it sounds to me like a kludge. If that was a proper solution, then they'd manufacture them that way (would be my logic about it).
So, if it is, in fact, a standard three-way with no hole, then it will trap water on the roof. A lot of water. With no drain-down, the only water coming down would be the water in the return pipe. All the water in the the supply side, including all the panels, would retain water. And that's not ideal. There is the freeze issue, obviously. But even in summer it's not great, because everyday you could be pumping gallons of night-cooled water into your pool before you even get the heated water happening. How bad that would be would depend on how much water is up there, and when your solar kicks in. For example, if your solar comes on at noon, that water is probably nice and hot, but if you start first thing, probably not. It's hard to say how that might affect your heating efficiency, but it's certainly not helping it.
I think you still need to do all the troubleshooting steps we've outlined for you, so you have a better idea of what you have and where the problem is.
Now, all that said, I do have some good news for you. You have a FlowVis flow meter! Which is not standard, but ideal for fine-tuning your solar heater efficiency. Now, that's best accomplished when you have a variable speed pump (do you?), but there are other ways you can fine tune the panels if you don't. More on that some other time...
I would call Jandy and see if they make a solar drain-down valve. And then I'd ask them if the guts of it can be mounted in the body of their standard three-way. That would make it a simple DIY job. Just a matter of a handful of screws, no plumbing or gluing.
As to the "drill a hole" method, I know of it but have no experience with it. And it may be that your Jandy had that done. You're not going to know for sure until you take it apart, so that's still on your list of troubleshooting. It would not be my first choice, as it sounds to me like a kludge. If that was a proper solution, then they'd manufacture them that way (would be my logic about it).
So, if it is, in fact, a standard three-way with no hole, then it will trap water on the roof. A lot of water. With no drain-down, the only water coming down would be the water in the return pipe. All the water in the the supply side, including all the panels, would retain water. And that's not ideal. There is the freeze issue, obviously. But even in summer it's not great, because everyday you could be pumping gallons of night-cooled water into your pool before you even get the heated water happening. How bad that would be would depend on how much water is up there, and when your solar kicks in. For example, if your solar comes on at noon, that water is probably nice and hot, but if you start first thing, probably not. It's hard to say how that might affect your heating efficiency, but it's certainly not helping it.
I think you still need to do all the troubleshooting steps we've outlined for you, so you have a better idea of what you have and where the problem is.
Now, all that said, I do have some good news for you. You have a FlowVis flow meter! Which is not standard, but ideal for fine-tuning your solar heater efficiency. Now, that's best accomplished when you have a variable speed pump (do you?), but there are other ways you can fine tune the panels if you don't. More on that some other time...
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