Upgrade Of Pool Pump, System, Equipment

[robertmee]

Thanks everyone.

The subpanel is indeed grounded back to the main.

I will need to read more closely through these replies.

A99 of course the GFI and switch boxes are grounded back to the subpanel, what I mean was whether they each needed a metal wire of their own going straight into the earth.

OK back to studying this, and thanks again !

Been busy at work, massive heat wave here, too hot to do much running around !

The only earth ground should be at the main panel. From the main panel to the sub-panel, you should have either a two wire (if 120V only) or three wire (if 240V) plus ground. Usually these are bundled in a single cable, so that you have a red, black, white and copper wire (240V three wire) or black, white and copper (120V two wire).

In either case, the red/black (or black only) will connect to the main breaker or power bus bar (you don't need a main breaker in the sub if only 5 circuits or less), the white will connect to the neutral bar and the copper/bare will connect to the ground bar. IMPORTANT!! Sub panels come with a jumper that connects the ground bar to the neutral bar. You MUST REMOVE this jumper in your situation. The only time the neutral and ground bars are tied together are at the main panel that is connected to earth ground.

For each circuit, whether GFCI or not, you'll have again a two wire (black and white) plus ground for 120V or two wire (black and red) plus ground for 240V. Sometimes a white wire is used for 240V , because that's what the electrician had, but DO NOT connect this to the neutral bar in the panel. Tape over the white insulation with black electrical tape to redesignate it as non-neutral and it would connect to the 2nd pole of a 2 pole 240V breaker. Outlets, lights, etc will be 120V. Pumps and SWGs are usually 240V. I doubt you would have a three wire load (120V/240V combo, but you could if you had an electric heater with controller).

There's ALOT to consider when installing electrical and if you're not proficient at it, leave it up to the professionals. I'm an EE by trade and have wired many houses in 20+ years and I still have to consult various resources and ask questions of building departments .

 

[rdshackleford]

robertmee, thanks for the info, sounds like professional advice to me. Do you think any local codes would change any of that advice? Or, is that standard NEC stuff?
-R

 

[robertmee]

Most of its standard NEC stuff...for local codes the best course of action is to meet with your building dept inspector. I'm on a first name basis with mine. They are super helpful and the more you talk up front the more they'll help you with your project. The biggest variance I've seen with local codes in regards to pools is fencing.

For electrical most standard practices apply. There are particular sections for bonding, how close electrical appliances can be to the pool, and the need for a service outlet.

 

[albert436]

Thanks Chief for speaking to those other points that I brought up earlier, I appreciate your perspective on this. I think I have come around to the idea of not having a pool service. My sister may actually be able to monitor things over there and I can always double check. That solar setup is one of the exact things I have in mind. How far into the winter does that keep your pool warm ?

Yes this old pool only has the skimmer for suction, but for now I bought a new vacuum and hose, woohoo ! ! ! The old fashioned way !

Next project is to do an underwater patch on that big "flake" that has come out of the plaster on the bottom. Plan on using

E-Z Patch 1FS White Pool Plaster Repair Fast Set

Here be the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0PxHzfkT3Y

Need to get some scuba equipment together for this. Reviews say the tricky part is getting the mixed material down underwater to the patch site, you need to put it in a ziplock bag or something because it tends to start dissolving away in the water.

Does it look like fun to you ? Here is a pic of the flake, that line is the jagged edge where it breaks off, it is about 12" long:

 

[albert436]

Robert, thanks, I just saw your replies as they were on the next page.

I had a pro electrician do all the new wiring from the house out to the pool. He put in a new upgraded main panel, a subpanel at the back of the house (for possible air conditioning system), and a subpanel out at the pool. The main panel does indeed have a bare copper wire going down to the ground. I have a healthy fear of electricity and wouldn't dream of attempting such a job myself, so your advice is well taken !

SDGE came out and did the inspection and approved etc. the new main panel.

Leave it to the pros, I totally agree with that ! ! !

Just wanted to cover all the bases with this little stuff like the new pool light and so forth, thanks for the input. When we put in a new pump I think it should also be bonded back to the subpanel as is the light. (Does that sound right ?)

Exciting stuff.

 

[chiefwej]

How deep is the water over the plaster patch site. It would be a LOT easier if you could drain down to it. If you do put the patch material in a gallon zip lock, you can just snip one corner off and apply like you are decorating a cake

 

[albert436]

Sorry, been so busy but finally got the patch stuff and went out there over the weekend with Bob.

Chief, the water at that point is around 5' deep since I drained down to the light niche and the delamination between the two plaster coats is on the bottom. The thing is, we are in the middle of a drought out here in California and just draining the pool down to the light niche as I did will make it rather costly to fill the pool back up. As it turned out, we were able to fish the new light cord right up through the old metal conduit, which had been cut just below the concrete. So we didn't need to trench down to behind the niche, and I actually didn't need to drain out that water. (I feel a bit foolish about that.)

I just ordered a 10lb container of the E-Z Patch 1FS. We started by trying out the patch material on a small delam and it worked great. As I had read in the reviews, the hardest part is getting the mixed patch material down to the defect. The reason is that as soon as it gets into the water it starts to "dissolve", so it is hard to get it to the right spot, and then again it makes a huge cloud, like a smoke screen.

What we did was put the mixed patch material in a tupperware container with the lid on and take it down. I was down there trying to wave the smoke away with a 6" putty knife. One thing we will do differently next time will be to turn the container over and put it right on the defect before removing the lid. My suggestion was to put it in a large ziplock freezer bag, take it down, slit the bottom a few inches, and squeeze it onto the defect, but I was overruled, at least this time.

Once it is on the defect, and you can wave away the smoke, it works great. (Disclaimer -- no idea how long it might last though.) The first patch, about 4" square, was beautiful, although slightly it is slightly lighter (white) than the pool plaster. Barely noticeable difference though.

So now I'm waiting for the new order of E-Z Patch to come. I got a pretty good sunburn on my back while I was at it, I generally stay out of the sun, but I was so engrossed that I lost track of the time.

Now I want to confess something else that is embarassing as heck for me. I really didn't know how bad it was for plaster to be dry, and as it happened we were hit with three consecutive heat waves and now a fourth.

Examination of the bottom of the pool revealed many smaller delaminations, so I know there were already problems with the plaster. But looking at the sides of the pool, I have noticed some vertical hairline cracks about two feet apart on one side of the pool. If I tap along the side, it sounds hollow underneath those areas, and solid in between. So I don't know if draining the water to the pool niche and not filling it right back up may have caused that. Also there are a couple of areas along that side where the plaster is bulging a little bit in two areas, each about 4" x 3". One more thing, the edge of one of the steps crumbled like chalk, about 4 inches wide, above the lowered water line.

But I wanted to work on the delams on the bottom and I didn't know if I would be draining the pool the rest of the way versus attempting an underwater patch.

In addition, there it some thing flaky delamination just under the new waterline along the other side, maybe for about two feet horizontal by three inches.

I feel like a total dope and this is what happens when amateurs think they know it all. Not completely sure if this was already there before I drained it though. ( ? )

All is not lost however. I can patch pretty much everything. The hairline cracks don't matter too much and I'm not worried about leaking as there is a plaster layer underneath.

The thing that most concerns me is the two little bulges in the wall, there is a little give to them when I push gently on them. I don't really want to start messing with them !

I talked to a local pool plasterer, a complete re-plaster would run $4500 - 5500. It would involved demolition of all the old plaster and starting from scratch. There is some other remediation needed such as ~1.5" subsidence of the concrete deck on one side. It doesn't absolutely need to be fixed immediately though. Nothing I can't handle in any case.

The pool is 53 years old and has been replastered with the new plaster being applied over the old plaster.

OK that's about it, it is enough, isn't it ?