trying to make our pathetic pool usable. help, please?

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Hi

You may have a slightly larger problem on your hands.... DE can be very bad for cartridge filters - it can ruin them....

I'd suggest you give the cartridges a thorough cleaning, following the process outlined here:
http://www.troublefreepool.com/how-to-clean-a-cartridge-filter-t4465.html

Hopefully it will help things.

And then figure out a way to vacume whatever is on the bottom of the pool - to waste - if you can, or figure out a way to trap any DE on the bottom before it enters the filter.

When you vacume, do you use the hose/vac plate assembly over the skimmer basket? If you were to put a skimmer sock/knee high nylon over the basket while vacuming maybe that would catch the DE?

Also when you say "poor" circulation, have you tried pointing the returns in various angles to improve it?
Always add your chems in front of the returns to they disperse properly.

Are you running the filter 24/7 and brushing often? You won't clear the pool if there are still organic waste like leaves, etc on the bottom...

Are you waiting to have the water tested by the Pool Store to see where your CYA level is?

I think you should test it now so we can see where the PH is....I'm concerned that it's too high.
 
*siGh*

our skimmer isn't connected to anything and even if it was we don't have a plate in it, and i don't know where the holes in the bottom go. we disconnected/plugged/capped off/sealed the old plumbing because there's a leak somewhere. all this is in my first post in this thread. we put in aboveground plumbing.
when we vacuum, we connect the hose to the in-pipe, where it then enters the pump basket as normal.

when it was really, really bad we disconnected the return-to-pool pipe from the filter (and took the filter cartridge out) and were basically doing a vacuum to waste.

i don't know if what i'm trying to get up off of the pool floor is DE or dead algae or dust/pollen/whatever. i'm just assuming it is DE because it is the same colour as the DE was when we had to flush the old filter.
when it dries in the sun it is sortof the colour of Quikrete or wet cement, but when it gets wet again it gets slippery.

i have read the "how to clean a cartridge filter" thing, you may notice i even posted in the thread.
http://www.troublefreepool.com/how-to-clean-a-cartridge-filter-t4465.html
and i have been following the instructions, including using a filter cleaning solution and a dishwasher detergent. i also used Doc Bronners soap and that actually worked better than either one of the other two to get rid of the slimy green deep inside the accordion folds.

as for your comment about our returns, since we have aboveground plumbing and have plugged the three return jets in the pool.... we only have one return. we have angled the in and out so that there's a nice circle of water movement. i occasionally put the hose on the end of the IN pipe and put it in the bottom of the deep end, to get some circulation of the water there.

so when i say "poor circulation" i mean the corners in the shallow end and the steps, mostly, where the water doesn't seem to move much.
until last night when i poured bleach directly into the deep end, i've always added everything right in front of the OUT pipe.
i thought it would be a good idea to test the dead corner and get the chemical level readings from there, figuring if even the dead corner is ok then everything should be.

as i said before, we've been running the filter/pump 23.5/7 for about the last week. i've been brushing the entire surface of the pool liner anywhere from two to four times a day.

yes, i'm waiting to have the pool store test the water on Monday to see where the CYA level is and to see what they say the pH is.

i tested everything at 730 this morning and posted pictures of the 5-way strip test.

and, frankly, i figured we'd need to get new cartridges next year anyway. so as long as these two get us through the next couple of months, that's all i'm looking for.
i'm not after perfect here. i'm just after usable.

*edited to remove uncontrolled snark.
 
thanks again, waste!! :sunny:

i'm trying to keep this thread updated partly for my own benefit later (assuming i get this pool cleared up and usable!) and partly in case anyone else has a similar situation and/or knowledge to toss my way.

my husband had to go to the post office today, so i asked him to go by the pool store and have them test the water...
i didn't go with him. :oops:
the pool store sometimes uses a "PinPoint Computerized Water Analysis System" and sometimes uses the HTH 6-way test strips :roll:
today was a test strip day, and my husband didn't write down the numbers (neither did they) and so we found a picture of the comparator graphic on the package and he said that the test strip showed our free chlorine as being high (which means over 10, 'cuz that's as high as the strip thingie goes)
and our CYA registered on their strip as as being between 50-100 :hammer:
or, rather, more orange than the 30-50 block but not as red/pink as the 100 block
here's a picture of the colour comparison chart thingie:
http://www.poolgeek.com/Assets/ProductImages/30507-b-2.jpg
they also said our CYA levels were low... although i don't know if they were basing that on an "in general" sort of thing, or if that's because they were still thinking our pool is 36,000 gallons (i've started using 23,000 for my calculations)

their test showed our pH as being 7.2, where our 5-way test strips have been showing our pH as being more like 8. i don't want it to get any lower if it really is low...but i don't want to raise it if it is really high.

i don't know what any of the other results were from their test. but they did manage to sell him a $10 bottle of flocculant (Clean Sweep).... yes, i told him not to buy anything before he left!! :rant:

anyway, so far today, i've been sweeping and vacuuming and switching out the filters about every two hours or as needed.
haven't seen any change in the clarity of the water, though. still the same as yesterday... shallow end mostly clear but a little cloudy and not sparkling or inviting-looking. deep end is clear enough to just barely make out the white main drain.

also? sortof unrelated, but then again not:
ANTS. ever since we moved in here, we've had a horrible ant problem! we finally got them under control inside the house, but they're still everywhere outside. i'm gonna spray the space between the coping and the concrete, but i'm pretty sure there's a massive ant colony living under all the concrete of the patio (over 15' out from the pool in places)...

and... lighting for the pool? i figure since we've got wonky aboveground plumbing for our inground pool, maybe using a pool light meant for an inground pool might work, too? :?
 
First off, great looking pool! Once you get it cleared, it will be worth the effort, believe me, from both the learning process and the enjoyment of your beautiful pool. :p

A few suggestions, if I may:

I didn't notice anyone here mentioning the relation of high calcium hardness to high ph/alk. It can cause cloudiness. Also, high ph affects the ability of free chlorine to fight the algae. Unfortunately, you really can't get an accurate test of hardness nor ph/alk with strips (or anything for that matter). Although, I am concerned that your strips are showing ph8 alk180. That tells me your ph/alk is high, we just don't know exactly how high. The pool store said ph 7.2. I would find out from the pool store if they're using a chlorine neutralizer when testing for ph/alk. High chlorine levels will show a lower than actual ph/alk reading on a drop test kit. If your chlor levels are holding overnight, you're not really fighting any algea any more, so high ph/alk:high calcium may be the prob. I would only use bottled bleach (sodium hypo) for now until you know for sure about the ph/hardness. Otherwise, adding those bags of pool shock will only add more calcium to your water. Once, you get an accurate ph/alk and hardess test, post here. I would shoot for 7.4ph, and 80 to 100 alk.

On another note, the filter. It seems very unusual for you to be building that much pressure so quickly, unless the cartridge is really getting loaded with junk. You stated that when cleaning the cart, there wasn't anything visible coming off. This could be due to the fact that the DE may have clogged your cartridge. I remember reading a post a while back, where someone asked if they could pour DE in their cartridge for better filtration. Apparently, this is a well known practice for sand filter owners to get better filtration. The response was, absolutely not. It would clog the cartridge, and possibly ruin it. I really hope this isn't the case for yours. But, maybe a real thorough spray down and cleaning will do the trick. From now on, I would only vacuum that white junk from the deep end to waste.

Good Luck

Gordy :cheers:
 
Any pool store who uses 6 way test strips is just plain negligent. Hopefully, you have another pool store in your area that uses drop tests. I feel so bad for you that you are already in a bad way with your pool and then to have such a substandard testing to be used at a pool store. Also, not sure if you know this, your sample water needs to be fresh for a pool store to get accurate results. So, don't take a sample and leave it in the car while you run errands, shop, etc. You need to get the sample to the pool store right away. I only mention this because there are so many people who don't realize this. If you already know it, just disregard.
 
Buggsw: you bring up a good point about the sample! luckily, the post office and the pool store are all within a mile of the house, so even if he'd gone to the PO first, it would have been less than five minutes difference. but i believe he went to the pool store first....when i see him next, i'll ask him. thanks for reminding me! :)
i don't trust that pool store as it is - when they first opened a few years back, they horribly HORRIBLY screwed up some pools they were hired to install. i know because the people who got @*&%$# called one of my friends (who i've lost touch with, sadly, and i think he has moved away now) to fix it all.
anyway, i think there is another pool store in town but i don't know if i can get my husband to take me there or not (i don't drive, so if he doesn't want to go...we don't go)

and gordyjamz:
thank you! i'd never seen a Grecian pool in person before we bought this house, and i vastly prefer IG pools with built-in steps...mostly 'cuz that's what i grew up with. but, yes, if i can get this pool clear, it'll be lovely. it was, last year, right after we filled it!
and you're right... nobody had mentioned or pointed me towards info about high calcium hardness ~ high pH/alkalinity! do you think the cloudiness that causes is sortof like the cloudiness you can get when pouring in, say, powdered "shock" or algaecide? or can it be more like what we've got...where it just makes the water look a little dull and lifeless (as my first stepfather would have called it "dead water")

and i don't need to ask that pool store if they're using a chlorine neutralizer, 'cuz they aren't. unless there's one built into the HTH 6-way test strips that they use!
although the four-way drop test that i have says our pH is 7.2, too.
aside from a couple of pucks we currently have dissolving, bleach is the only thing we've been using. we have some cal-hypo, but i'm not comfortable using it right now.

----
i had part of something else typed up, but i forgot to submit the message :oops:

but once the sun came up this morning, i saw that the shallow end of the pool was actually SPARKLING CLEAR!
the deep end was about a 50% improvement over yesterday. or at least it was before i started sweeping and vacuuming and stirring everything up :roll:

so who knows?! maybe by tomorrow or thursday, it'll be swimmable. :cheers:
 
It's hard to tell the difference between calcium cloudy and dead algae cloudy, which makes it sort of tricky. If you have lights in your pool, then at night if you see particles in the water through the light beam, then most likely you have dead algae or other matter that just needs to be filtered out. High ph/alk will cause calcium to precipitate out in the water. In other words, undissolve. It's microscopic, so you can't see it with the naked eye, hence, the light beam test. Calcium can be high in your fill water (aka water hardness), so if you have hard water, I would only stick with bleach for chlorine just to be on the safe side.

It sounds like your water clarity is improving, though, so that leads me to believe that it's probably just junk that needs to be filtered. Calcium precip wouldn't improve without a ph adjustment. I would continue the shock level until your fc holds overnight. The water will clear eventually.

Gordy :cheers:
 

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aha! gordyjamz, thanks :)
the water is definitely particulate-cloudy. we don't have lights in the pool, but when i was laying beside the pool so i could scrub the scum-line and make sure i'd gotten all the algae loose.... i could see the little teeny bits of stuff in the water. my eyes are not microscopes, though, so it probably isn't the calcium then. yesno? prolly just dead algae and other assorted stuff.

and our tap water is extreeeeemely hard.

but the rainwater around here is super soft. and we've gotten a couple of inches worth of rainwater in the pool since my last post, which also means we haven't accomplished much else. :cry:
 
well, the sun came out for awhile today, so i thought i'd snap a couple of pictures!
these are clickable thumbnails, should you care to see the larger version.

pool steps, showing how clear the water in the shallow end has gotten:


and more shots of the shallow end, this is jusssst about what i'd call sparkling clear.




whole pool (well, most of it):



and the deep end is clear about halfway down, then it gets cloudy... but at least the main drain is visible now!


the concrete has settled, or something, and pulled away from the coping/walls in one of the shoulders here near the steps... it was like that when we bought the house. is this bad? should it be filled in with something, and if so what? i left the garden hose in the picture for size comparison.



and here are a couple of pictures where i'm trying to show what the "stuff" is that we've been washing out of the filters. once in the sun for a few hours, it dries into this powder-y substance, when wet it gets slimy. anybody know if this is dead (hopefully) algae or DE or... just pool funk?


 
Just wondering, you said you had a one in, one out on your above ground pluming. I don't know where you have your one in at, but you might want to try putting it in the deep end of your pool. This way your turning the water over in the pool.

If you one in is setting above the water, then the water that's in the deep end is just setting there not getting filtered.

If it was possible, try splitting you inlet into two inlets, and set one on top of the shallow end, and one on the bottom in the deep end.
 
splitting the "IN" would be a fantastic idea, but i'm not that handy and i doubt i could convince my husband to do it - plus we can't afford the PVC right now.

but what i am doing, instead, is putting the vacuum head on the pool hose, connecting that to the "IN" and putting it down in the bottom of the deep end. so for about half the day the water going into the filter is from about 18" down in the shallow end, and for the other half of the day the water going into the filter is from the bottom of the deep end.

i got the 6-way HTH test strips from my friend (she moved and didn't need 'em anymore and gave 'em to me) and tested the water with those - mostly to see what the CYA levels are, or at least give me a range.

the options for the CYA comparator are 0 30-50 100 150 300
and, again, here's a graphic: http://www.poolgeek.com/Assets/ProductImages/30507-b-2.jpg
the colour scale goes from orange to rust to red to pink to purple.

and i've tested it twice. the first time, it was rust (for 30-50) and the second time it was orange (for 0-30) -- remember the pool store used these same strips and it was more like 100 a couple of days ago.
**since the pool store tested it, we did get a couple inches of rainwater in the pool, and added some water from the hose as well because the water level got too low for my liking.... but i don't see how 4-6 inches of water could change the PPM THAT much.

but for now, i'm just gonna assume the CYA is about 40 since we added a 4lb canister of stabilizer that has now completely dissolved, plus the pucks we used that added some as well.
and i've been doing my best to keep the FC at least 10 (which is as high as the strips go)
and apparently this is working, 'cuz the pool's MUCH clearer. :)
 
Wow! What a story and challenge!

First off: Don't waste another nickel on test strips. The only GOOD ones are Hach 6-way and LaMotte 6-way. The former cost $30 and the latter about $10-$15 for half as many. Plus they are VERY hard to read correctly. For that $$$ you could buy the W-Mart HTH 6-way drop kit--which is only a 2nd best solution (Plan B) to the proper kits--the FAS-DPD test kits. (Plan A)

What you can do is hunt around for an OTO-type test kit to see if there's one that goes to 5ppm for chlorine rather than 3ppm. If so, you can use my "Shot Glass" method to measure chlorine to 10 or even 15ppm. This is a Plan C solution but the test kit shouldn't be more than $10. But the "Shot Glass" method should be here at TFP somewhere.

Meanwhile, save your money for bleach and liquid chlorine--don't waste in on more expensive chlorines or magic additives. For me, I get LC for $16/5gal drum. It's 12% nominally (though it usually tests at 14%) which means it's the equivalent of 10 gallons of 6% ultra bleach--at a price of $1.60 per gallon...not bad for New Jersey!

You'll never get your pool clear unless you keep your FC level high enough long enough, and that means testing your water 2 to 3 times a day to make sure the FC level is high enough.

I don't know the TFP landscape very well--I'm mostly on PoolForum. But I'm sure Sean and Jason have a section or sticky posted thread on how to clean up a pool infested with a nasty algae bloom...that's where P.O.P.P is necessary.

But I think you need to stop trying different chemicals and guessing on amounts and focus on a single strategy so you KNOW what your levels are. I think you CAN do it on your limited budget and I hope I've given you an effective way to do that.

Good Luck!

CarlD
 
CarlD : the only test strips we've actually purchased are the 5-way ones. and we got those with some leftover store credit, so we didn't really pay cash-money for 'em. the 6-way ones i have were a gift from a friend - she accidentally packed them up after their last move and they don't have a pool where they are now.
i don't intend to buy any more test strips, ever, except for possibly the salt strips. but that's more for my curiosity than anything else.

as for methodology... that's pretty much what i've done. through reading, research and personal experience... i decided to just concentrate on keeping the free chlorine levels between 10-14ppm.
i'll attempt to get the pH and alkalinity in proper range after the water's clear. and it is getting there!
and now i'm off to go work on it some more, now that the sun's up and i can see what i'm doing!
 
If your CYA level is between 50 and 100, keeping your FC at 10-14ppm isn't going to work. You need to keep your FC level between 15 and 20ppm, depending, and perhaps as high as 25. If your CYA is 50, then FC=15 is the shocking level. If it's between 60 and 90, then FC=20 is the shocking level. And if it's 100 or more, you need to shock at fc=25ppm.

Those are the numbers to clear your pool.

BTW, if you have 60% Polyquat algaecide, that's just as good a flocculent as what they sold your husband. I can't remember the last time I used a straight floc--must be 9 or 10 years ago. Polyquat's good stuff, but only AFTER the algae is gone--it prevents it. Polyquat's downside is that if you add a lot (like a quart) within 48 hours your FC will drop to 0. Then you need to add chlorine again.

Good luck!
 
that's just it, though, Carl... i *don't* know for certain what our CYA level is :oops:

ever since we first started working on the pool, and we measured it, my husband (who's much more numbers-inclined than i am!) has been saying it is a 36,000 gallon pool and i don't know enough one way or another to determine if that's right or wrong. so that's what we were basing all our math on.
but then a few days ago, waste posted in this thread and said that he thinks the pool is more like 25k gallons. so since then, those are the numbers i've been working with.

before we added stabilizer, the pool store checked our CYA and it was 9, so we got 4lbs of stabilizer. which, according to the doohickey on the poolcalculator would raise the CYA by 21.
so that = 30, plus however much has been added by the pucks that we were using.... i estimate we've used as many pucks since that test as we had before that test, so i figure another 10ppm worth of CYA.

so for my calculations, i'm assuming the CYA is 40. which means shock level is either 16 (if it is 40) or 12 (if it is 300) so i've been averaging them together to get 14.

yes, the pool would probably already be clear by now if i had been keeping it at 14, but i can't seem to get my husband to understand that what i'm wanting is higher than what the strips measure. and he seems to have it stuck in his head that 7ppm is what we're going for. *shRuG*
and since i can't go get more bleach without him (i don't drive), i have to make what we have work. which i can't tell you how frustrating it is :rant:
i'm here for advice and i WANT advice... and i'm trying my best to follow it but i'm stuck behind so many roadblocks.

but all of that aside, i've almost got it! :whoot:

it looks like the bottom 18" or 2 feet or so, just the bottom most bottom of the deep end is the only part that's not near-sparkling clear now! i can see the pattern on the floor of the deep end and the holes in the frisbee lookin' thing that is the (non-working) main drain!
and the PSI on the filter was only 10 when i got up this morning, and it had been running with that same cartridge since yesterday afternoon!
i then proceeded to vacuum up some more of the whatever-it-is, which of course made the PSI go up and we switched out the cartridge, but then i vacuumed most of the rest of the pool, and the PSI is still at 12! :-D

i'm letting everything settle again for a few hours (plus it started raining) and then i'll go vacuum again. in the meantime, i left the vacuum head in the deep end, to let that water get filtered as much as possible.

my goal was to have this pool clear by August 1, which is when my mom's vacation starts, and it looks like i'm gonna make it :goodjob:
 
well, let's do some REALLY rough estimating:

If your pool is 20x40, and exactly half is 4' deep, and half it 8' deep, then the volume of the 4' half is: 20x20x4=1600 cubic feet. The volume of the 8' deep half would be double that: 3200 cubic for a total of 4800 cubic feet. Since there are 7.48 gallons in a cubic foot, you would have 35,904 gallons.

But that's based on VERY broad assumptions--if you have an 8' deep section, it surely slopes down to it from 4 sides, reducing your gallonage, by maybe 2000-3000 gallons. If 4' and 8' are NOMINAL depths, but the water is really only 3' 6" and 7'6", that's another 3000 gallons--and we are now at 30,000 gallons. I would bet Waste is right.

If you don't get the right shock level for your CYA level, you won't clear up your algae bloom no matter what your husband says. I don't want to get into your relationship with him but if he doesn't accept the numbers that have been proven again and again over 10 years at PoolForum and here more recently at TFP, then plan on closing your pool for this summer.

I'm sorry, but I see no other solution if you cannot use the correct chemical amounts.
 
Hi Princess,

Sounds like you're making headway. Based on what you've posted, I can most likely confirm that your cloudiness is due to dead algae or other matter being oxidized by the chlorine, and not from calcium hardness. You stated that the water is clearing better each day, which is good. The reason it's taking some time is probably because of the rain. You've mentioned it raining quite a few times recently. Rain is gonna carry with it some sort of dust, pollen, and other matter (which is what makes water vapor fall from clouds in the first place). Your chlorine is fighting a war on 2 fronts right now, the rain, and the rest of the algae in your pool. Give it some time, and, a few sunny days, and I'm sure your water will clear. I would keep monitoring you chlor levels and keep at shock level in the meantime. Keep the faith :wink:

Gordy :cheers:
 

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