SWGS, salt and rising PH

wkillham

0
LifeTime Supporter
Oct 24, 2010
28
Pasadena, MD
SWGs do put upward pressure on PH. But, we can manage that by managing TA between 50 and 60 and if it is still rising more than you like you can add 50 ppm of borates to help reduce pH rise. Also, waterfalls, bubblers and other water features cause pH to rise. Running them less or not at all will reduce pH rise.

I keep my TA around 50, have 50ppm of borate, do not have anything that aerates, only run pump 4-6 hours per day and still have the issues. I close the pool at 7.2 in late October and open it higher than my ph test will read in April every year. The presence of salt alone seems to increase the ph.


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Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

I keep my TA around 50, have 50ppm of borate, do not have anything that aerates, only run pump 4-6 hours per day and still have the issues. I close the pool at 7.2 in late October and open it higher than my ph test will read in April every year. The presence of salt alone seems to increase the ph.


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Feel free to start a thread to discuss this further. We'd be happy to help you track it down.

For OP, salt in a pool does not cause pH to rise. All pools have salt in them. All forms of chlorine add salt to the pool. Most tap water has salt in it and muriatic acid also adds salt.
 
Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

pH rise in SWG's mostly comes from the outgassing of carbon dioxide caused by the vigorous bubble formation of hydrogen gas at cathode. The gas bubbles are pure hydrogen gas and the CO2 wants to diffuse into the bubble (higher concentration of dissolved CO2 in the water than in the gas bubble). So the bubbles generated by the SWG carry away hydrogen gas and CO2. Because of the net loss of CO2, the alkalinity of the water shifts in equilibrium to counteract the effect and, in the process, consumes a proton (H+). This is what causes pH rise in all pools (aside form adding that chemicals that cause pH rise like washing soda).

However, the SWG effect is somewhat small. Typically what people are seeing is not some much the use of the SWG causing the pH rise BUT, the discontinued use of trichlor tablets and dichlor powder which are acidic. The acidity of the stabilized chlorine compounds both lowers the pH of water directly and consumes alkalinity. So, people who are used to using stabilized chlorine also get used to the fact that the pH tend to be more balanced due to the fact that the acidic solid chlorine is offsetting the natural aeration of CO2 from the water. In some instances, these pools can actually have no net pH change over an entire season.

But you have to ask the question - what would you rather do? Add acid to your pool on a more frequent basis or drain your pool when it becomes over stabilized by too much CYA? Adding acid is far, far easier because fighting pH never causes an algae bloom to occur. On the other hand, fighting with high CYA can easily cause an algae bloom and thus compound the problems and costs associated with using solid chlorine.
 
Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

Feel free to start a thread to discuss this further. We'd be happy to help you track it down.

For OP, salt in a pool does not cause pH to rise. All pools have salt in them. All forms of chlorine add salt to the pool. Most tap water has salt in it and muriatic acid also adds salt.

I understand all of that and the post below. I did start a thread several years ago which led to the borate and lowered TA. The only thing that goes into this pool is salt, CYA, baking soda and occasional hardness plus. My water is very stable with the exception of ph. The TA tends to decrease over time due to the constant addition of MA. I do my own testing with a TF-100 kit.

I have an old Zodiac unit that wants to see salt levels in the 4K ppm range which may have something to do with this but I've come to accept it as one of those things I cannot change so I just deal with it.

FWIW, salt does indeed increase PH. To save the time of typing the explanation into my phone with one finger I'll just say "google it". How else do you explain the rise while the pool is closed? I have a solid cover...


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Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

pH rise in SWG's mostly comes from the outgassing of carbon dioxide caused by the vigorous bubble formation of hydrogen gas at cathode. The gas bubbles are pure hydrogen gas and the CO2 wants to diffuse into the bubble (higher concentration of dissolved CO2 in the water than in the gas bubble). So the bubbles generated by the SWG carry away hydrogen gas and CO2. Because of the net loss of CO2, the alkalinity of the water shifts in equilibrium to counteract the effect and, in the process, consumes a proton (H+). This is what causes pH rise in all pools (aside form adding that chemicals that cause pH rise like washing soda).

However, the SWG effect is somewhat small. Typically what people are seeing is not some much the use of the SWG causing the pH rise BUT, the discontinued use of trichlor tablets and dichlor powder which are acidic. The acidity of the stabilized chlorine compounds both lowers the pH of water directly and consumes alkalinity. So, people who are used to using stabilized chlorine also get used to the fact that the pH tend to be more balanced due to the fact that the acidic solid chlorine is offsetting the natural aeration of CO2 from the water. In some instances, these pools can actually have no net pH change over an entire season.

But you have to ask the question - what would you rather do? Add acid to your pool on a more frequent basis or drain your pool when it becomes over stabilized by too much CYA? Adding acid is far, far easier because fighting pH never causes an algae bloom to occur. On the other hand, fighting with high CYA can easily cause an algae bloom and thus compound the problems and costs associated with using solid chlorine.

Could you not simply use non-stabilized chlorine? Don't get me wrong, I love the sw pool but fighting the scale really gets old.


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Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

I'd like to know how salt in and of itself raises pH. Please enlighten me.

pH is always rising in a pool (open or closed) because the carbon dioxide content of the water is far out of balance than that of the atmosphere. Lower TAs and elevated pH levels do somewhat act as a counterbalance but do not eliminate the problem completely. At a pH of 7.8 and a TA of 50, the water still has over double the dissolved carbon dioxide content as what's available in the air around it.

You have a cementious surface which is always reacting with the water it is submerged in. Even in perfectly balanced water (net CSI=O), there are still microscopic amounts of plaster that are deteriorating which release calcium hydroxide into the water and cause a new layer of calcium carbonate to form at the surface (causing a pH rise). This is why no plaster surface will last forever. You can take measures to increase the longevity of the plaster by maintaining proper water balance but sooner or later the surface will deteriorate to the point of needed repair. This is easy to see since fiberglass and vinyl liner pools are often times much more stable in regards to pH rise.

The pH rise in your closed pool has nothing to do with salt. Every pool in the world has salt in it, all tap water has salt in it, and just about every chemical you add to the water contains salt (chloride) so SWG or not, its still a salt water pool.
 

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Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

Sure it's trace amounts, but it's a trade-off since it's adding high levels of cya at the same t time. My point is all pools have salt in them and everything you add to your pool is also going to add salt to it. If you have a true salt water pool where salt is intentionally added, they typically have decreasing salt levels due to backwashing and dilution from rainwater. In arid climates, salt levels typically rise from lack of rainfall and frequent acid additions (acid contains very high levels of chloride) but this isn't much of an issue since salt is relatively harmless, is easily lowered (ex: 6000 ppm salt drained and replaced with typical fill water below 100ppm), and has proven beneficial since our eyes are much less irritated by water that contains salt levels closer to what is contained in our tears.
 
Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

Sure it's trace amounts, but it's a trade-off since it's adding high levels of cya at the same t time. My point is all pools have salt in them and everything you add to your pool is also going to add salt to it. If you have a true salt water pool where salt is intentionally added, they typically have decreasing salt levels due to backwashing and dilution from rainwater. In arid climates, salt levels typically rise from lack of rainfall and frequent acid additions (acid contains very high levels of chloride) but this isn't much of an issue since salt is relatively harmless, is easily lowered (ex: 6000 ppm salt drained and replaced with typical fill water below 100ppm), and has proven beneficial since our eyes are much less irritated by water that contains salt levels closer to what is contained in our tears.

I question none of the above. My original comment to the potential buyer of a SWG was that I have to add nearly a gallon of acid per week and I'm getting tired of dealing with the staining and scale. I can maintain ph while the pool is open but cannot do a thing about it in the off season.


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Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

My point in all of this is that your issues are not related to salt. Salt gets incorrectly blamed for most issues that arise with pools and equipment.

In your situation, higher levels of salt will actually decrease the CSI of the water which decreases the scale potential (all other parameters being consistent - pH, TA, temp, etc...)
 
Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

We've completely intermingled two threads here. I'll comment on the scaling issue. The winter scaling is more likely caused by a combination of high CH and high pH, versus anything to do with salt or with pH alone. wkillham - What is your CH level prior to close each year? My pH also gets quite high during the closed winter months but I have no scaling whatsoever. My CH levels are generally below 400 (already on the higher side) when I close. And rain water dilutes that during the winter because of my mesh cover.

OP - Salt is just peachy and it will be in your pool regardless of how it got there and whether you choose to generate chlorine from it or not. Given that choice, why not 'use' the salt?
 
Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

I understand all of that and the post below. I did start a thread several years ago which led to the borate and lowered TA. The only thing that goes into this pool is salt, CYA, baking soda and occasional hardness plus. My water is very stable with the exception of ph. The TA tends to decrease over time due to the constant addition of MA. I do my own testing with a TF-100 kit.

I have an old Zodiac unit that wants to see salt levels in the 4K ppm range which may have something to do with this but I've come to accept it as one of those things I cannot change so I just deal with it.

FWIW, salt does indeed increase PH. To save the time of typing the explanation into my phone with one finger I'll just say "google it". How else do you explain the rise while the pool is closed? I have a solid cover...


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Ok, so I moved this to a new thread so we can explore it further.

A gallon a week is a surprising amount to with TA at 50 and 50 ppm of borate. Where are you trying to keep PH. 7.8? It should stabilize at 7.8 with 50 ppm TA and 50 ppm borates. Are you adding baking soda to raise your TA back to 50? Try letting it drop to 45 or 40 and see if your pH stops rising and stays stable.
 
Re: Does anyone have anything bad to say about saltwater pools?????

Ok, so I moved this to a new thread so we can explore it further.

A gallon a week is a surprising amount to with TA at 50 and 50 ppm of borate. Where are you trying to keep PH. 7.8? It should stabilize at 7.8 with 50 ppm TA and 50 ppm borates. Are you adding baking soda to raise your TA back to 50? Try letting it drop to 45 or 40 and see if your pH stops rising and stays stable.

Thank you. I've been trying to keep ph 7.4-7.6 knowing it rises on me. I don't check TA as often and usually don't mess with it until it drops to 45 which is when I'll add baking soda.

With the amount of scale I have I've really tried to stay toward the lower end on PH. Sometimes it's so bad that my cleaner looks like it's picking up play sand.


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That might not be scale, it might be etching plaster. Do you monitor your CSI? PoolMath gives you the number after you enter your test results. If it is below -0.6 then your plaster is releasing calcium into the water. Keep your CSI between -0.3 and 0.

More here, Pool School - Calcium Scaling

I can scrape it off the plaster and it coats my stainless light ring. Pretty sure it's scale. Yes I monitor CSI


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