Right, 50 mg/L of boron is equivalent to 285 mg/L boric acid, so definitely toxic to bees. But I doubt that they would drink it.
- Status
You've now got it right. Bees drinking pool water in the same amount as in the EPA study would have a high mortality rate.
So I got 15 boxes last night, and asked the wife to get 20 more from WalMart on the way home. She did a little research and is now asking me why we need 35 boxes when this site says we only need one box per 20,000 gallons!
http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/swimmin ... store.html
Comments?
http://www.poolsolutions.com/gd/swimmin ... store.html
Comments?
That web page is talking about using borax to raise PH, which is a completely different thing from using borax to raise the borate level. Borax raises the PH quite a bit, so you really don't need all that much to raise PH. That is why you need to add so much acid when you add borax to get a borate level.
The way I read it he was both recommending it as a way to raise pH and a way to buffer pH. But I see what you mean. Thanks!
How important is it to adjust TA to 70-80 ppm before adding borates? My TA is a little high at 120, but my pH is fine at 7.5. If the TA is fine, I'd rather leave it at that because I have no way to aerate the pool at the moment.
Do it before, because once the borates are there they are going to buffer your acid, making it harder to get your TA in line. I can't aerate mine either, I got lucky because we had some big storms roll through and aerated the pool for me 
Finally added some borates to my pool. I sourced Boric acid (granular) here in Portugal from Sapec Quimica (SAPECQUIMICA.PT) for 1.50€ per kilo in 25 KG bags plus 30€ delivery and 22% VAT. Total, 83.03€ for 25 KG (around $2.20 per lb).
Adding it was easy in the skimmer as per waterbears excellent instructions. Frothed up a bit and the water now seems to make my skin feel squeaky. Not been long enough to notice benefits yet but I'm full of high hopes now the last piece of the BBB/TFP jigsaw has been added to my pool water.
Adding it was easy in the skimmer as per waterbears excellent instructions. Frothed up a bit and the water now seems to make my skin feel squeaky. Not been long enough to notice benefits yet but I'm full of high hopes now the last piece of the BBB/TFP jigsaw has been added to my pool water.
jark87
Silver Supporter
- Jun 5, 2011
- 1,184
- Pool Size
- 25500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Jandy Aquapure 1400
I've had my pool for 5 years and have been frustrated by the constantly rising PH. Don't know how I missed this site during my research, but glad I finally found it!
Based on the calculations above, and a quick web search for 20 Mule Team Borax pricing, cost of borax alone is ~$200 (16 boxes). Cost of 6 gallons of acid is additional. ProTeam Supreme Plus is $21 for 5 lbs at Pool Geek. Application is 2 lbs per 1,000 gallons, so I need 12.75 lbs, or 3 buckets. Total cost for Supreme Plus = $63.
How is the "do-it-yourself" version cheaper? What am I missing?
Based on the calculations above, and a quick web search for 20 Mule Team Borax pricing, cost of borax alone is ~$200 (16 boxes). Cost of 6 gallons of acid is additional. ProTeam Supreme Plus is $21 for 5 lbs at Pool Geek. Application is 2 lbs per 1,000 gallons, so I need 12.75 lbs, or 3 buckets. Total cost for Supreme Plus = $63.
How is the "do-it-yourself" version cheaper? What am I missing?
In 25,500 gallons to raise borates from zero to fifty, you need just under 20 boxes of borax, which costs about $85 where I live, plus 5.5 gallons of acid which will cost about $30 where I am. Using ProTeam Supreme Plus to get the same borate level you need 61 lbs. or about $252 at the price you quoted. Instead of using ProTeam Supreme Plus, you can purchase boric acid in bulk for about $100 for 55 lbs.
jark87
Silver Supporter
- Jun 5, 2011
- 1,184
- Pool Size
- 25500
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Jandy Aquapure 1400
Thanks for the quick reply! You're right - further research shows $3/box for 20 Mule Team Borax at Wal-Mart vs. $12/box in my first search. Even buythecase.com was $6/box. Crazy price variation!
Thinking I had discovered a cheap and easy alternative, I already ordered the Supreme Plus, assuming that the application rate shown on the web site was accurate. I'll go ahead and apply that, and assuming that it doesn't provide the prescribed borate level, I'll finish the job with your prescribed method.
Thanks again and great web site!
Thinking I had discovered a cheap and easy alternative, I already ordered the Supreme Plus, assuming that the application rate shown on the web site was accurate. I'll go ahead and apply that, and assuming that it doesn't provide the prescribed borate level, I'll finish the job with your prescribed method.
Thanks again and great web site!
Welcome to TFP! 
Before you add the borates, lower your TA level if it's not already at 70 ppm or so (perhaps even lower). The procedure is described in the Pool School article on how to Lower Total Alkalinity.
Before you add the borates, lower your TA level if it's not already at 70 ppm or so (perhaps even lower). The procedure is described in the Pool School article on how to Lower Total Alkalinity.
I'm not kidding, I read all 12 pages a few days ago, but I don't want to read them all again...so hopefully this hasn't been covered..
I found this stuff (and a CUlator!!!) at a local pool store. Capo (or PoolBoss) Soft Touch. The MSDS - http://www.vanislewater.com/images/dlfi ... _touch.pdf shows Sodium Teraborate Penta Hydrate 30 - 60 % and Boric Acid 60 - 40 %. Is this PH neutral?
It was 8kg for roughly $50CDN. If I recall correctly from reading the label I think I'll need less of this than if I were to use Mule Team, and if it's PH neutral, I won't need the MA. The MA is $9 for 4 litres. I'm not sure how much the Mule Team is at the Wal Mart near me.
I found this stuff (and a CUlator!!!) at a local pool store. Capo (or PoolBoss) Soft Touch. The MSDS - http://www.vanislewater.com/images/dlfi ... _touch.pdf shows Sodium Teraborate Penta Hydrate 30 - 60 % and Boric Acid 60 - 40 %. Is this PH neutral?
It was 8kg for roughly $50CDN. If I recall correctly from reading the label I think I'll need less of this than if I were to use Mule Team, and if it's PH neutral, I won't need the MA. The MA is $9 for 4 litres. I'm not sure how much the Mule Team is at the Wal Mart near me.
That won't be PH neutral, though not as bad as borax. I've forgotten the exact number, but it was somewhere around 90% boric acid to be PH neutral. That is also far more expensive than what we pay for boric acid in the US.
Yes, many people do both salt and borates. The effects are distinct, though similar in some respects, and most people prefer the combination once they have tried it.
Not only did you guys win the Stanley Cup, but the cost of Mule Team Borax and Muriatic Acid is ridiculous up here in Canada.
Wal Mart has 2kg boxes for $5. 4 litres of MA is about $9. From the Pool Calculator, to raise my borate level from 0 to 50 will be 24kg of Mule Team and 12 litres of MA. So that's $60 plus $27 for a total of $87. I can buy that Soft Touch I posted up above for $50 for 8kg. The tub says 2kg per 10000 litres. So that tub will do 40000 litres. So I'll need another 3kg to have the right amount for 55000 litres. If I buy two tubs for $100 I'll have 5kg left over to use next spring when I open and the pool has been diluted with fresh water topped up after draining to winterize.
I'm really horrible at math. Which way will save me more money?
Wal Mart has 2kg boxes for $5. 4 litres of MA is about $9. From the Pool Calculator, to raise my borate level from 0 to 50 will be 24kg of Mule Team and 12 litres of MA. So that's $60 plus $27 for a total of $87. I can buy that Soft Touch I posted up above for $50 for 8kg. The tub says 2kg per 10000 litres. So that tub will do 40000 litres. So I'll need another 3kg to have the right amount for 55000 litres. If I buy two tubs for $100 I'll have 5kg left over to use next spring when I open and the pool has been diluted with fresh water topped up after draining to winterize.
I'm really horrible at math. Which way will save me more money?
Does anyone know if running borates will interfere with your run-of-the-mill PH sensors in systems like the chemlink or sense and dispense?
- Status