single speed vs variable speed & intelliflo vs superflo

[aaron_w_o]

Hello TFP'ers : happy fathers day to all.

I have had nothing but the most balanced and outstanding advice from users of this forum, so hence today's question.

I presently have a 3/4HP superflo, single speed pump. It works well, it is 2 yrs old. It is noisy. Especially because my equipment pad is near where we generally sit.

I might look to replace it this year.
My rationale is:
1) will cut down on noise
2) can save a couple hundred dollars a year
3) can circulate pool water more often (and thus chlorinate more often: SWG user & pool has very sunny exposure, thus chlorination is always a balancing act)

to clarify the last point: i presently run my single speed about 12 hrs a day. my city offers off peak discount on electricity. so, weekdays from 7pm-7am is when i get cheap power(aka overnight). and my water circulates then. Weekends, its always cheap so I run it 9am-9pm.

I generally prefer to have the pump on while swimming. but most of us are annoyed by the noise. I am going deaf (no joke) and so it doesn't bother me much Well probably not going deaf but my hearing is horrible - i actually find this a benefit in my life

ok, getting off topic... sorry.

i want to stick with pentair. note I am in canada and pool use is seasonal: 6 mos a year at best.

here are some questions, but also looking for someone to jump up and tell me something i never thought of yet.
1) how much quieter is a VS pump
2) will i really save 200$ a year? this seems to be what is advertised on average
3) will low pump speeds cause lower pressure (aka will flow switches still work on heater and chlorinator)
4) will low pump speeds and lower pressure still push water through the sand filter
5) what is the difference between the intelliflo and VS superflo? it looks like intelliflo have fancy controllers right at the pump head. but I already have easytouch & screenlogic... is there something else about intelliflo that adds benefit? it's quite a bit more expensive.
6) does my idea about more frequent low speed chlorination make sense? with the pump on more often and longer, I'd produce more chlorine. this might make $$ savings less

ok, thats enough on this for now... not a bad brain dump.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Aaron,

I am also hard of hearing, but more so when my wife is talking...

The only VS pump that the EasyTouch can control is one of the IntelliFlo pumps..

You would think it should control the Pentair SuperFlo VS, but that is not the case. The SuperFlo VS does not have a RS-485 com port...

This means your pump choices are... a single speed pump, a two-speed pump, or the IntelliFlo.

I would think the IntelliFlo would save you a lot more that just $200 a year. I know my electrical rates are much lower than yours, but I can run my pump 24/7, at 1200 rpm for less than $20 a month. At that speed you almost can't hear it, deaf or not... When the pump was new, I actually touched it a couple of times just to make sure it was running.

Like any VS pump, the faster you run it the more it costs and the louder it gets. At full speed it is about the same noise level as a single speed pump.

I have a large cartridge filter and my filter pressure, when running at 1200 RPM is about 2 lbs. or less. You would think this is bad, but it is not. The higher the pressure the harder it is for the water to pass through the filter.

With ScreenLogic, it is pretty simple to just use an Icon to adjust the speed that you want. The flow switch on my SWCG closes at about 1100 RPM, so I run it most of the time at 1200 RPM just to make sure. I like generating chlorine a little at a time and all the time, so my pump runs 24/7.

With the EasyTouch you can just schedule different speeds at different times, if needed for better skimming.

With a heater in the loop, my guess is that you will have to run 1500 to 1800 RPM to turn your heater on..

I think that anyone that has an EasyTouch and ScreenLogic is doing themselves a disservice if they don't have an IntelliFlo pump.

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[aaron_w_o]

very nice Jim - see I didn't realize the superflo VS is not programmable. great reason to use the forum. so what is it (the superflo VS) exactly?
Sounds like I need intelliflo.
I forgot to add that until Feb 2019, my local utility company is giving 400$ rebates on pump replacements!
that is pretty huge. Pentair seems to also be giving 50-100$ rebates.

 

[Jimrahbe]

A,

The SuperFlo is meant to be a VS standalone replacement for the standard (3/4, 1 and 1.5 HP) single speed pump used on many, many pools..

It has 1.5" plumbing which matches up with most older pools. The Intelliflo has 2" plumbing and matches up with most newer pools.

The SuperFlo VS has a control panel that can be programmed to act as a timer/ scheduler for the pump. So it can be "programmed" to come on or turn off at scheduled times and change speeds, but it just can't be easily controlled by an Automation system.

$400 bucks is almost half of what an older IntelliFlo costs.. See this link... Pentair IntelliFlo Variable Speed Pool Pump | 011018

Keep in mind that the Intelliflo only runs off of 220 volts, while the SuperFlo VS can use 120 or 220 volts..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[aaron_w_o]

yes that same pump seems to be about 1300$ canadian funds.
even if i take a trip to NY, with exchange right now it will be 1200$ and then i have to declare at border, pay tax and duty... mayswell buy it from local store.

but with 400$ back from Hydro Ottawa, and 100$ back from pentair, it's still a good deal overall.

 

[aaron_w_o]

I spoke with my pool builder today. They didn't say it outright, but did imply that my 1.5" lines are not compatible with the intelliflo.

Is that really true? Besides using reducers, I ask because presently, my 1.5" lines come from the pool suction into a jandy valve which is 1.5".
However, a 2" slip coupler is used on the jandy output and is then slid over the pump intake. So that looks to me like that is 2" there.

They are also adding a significant margin to the pump cost.

I will probably get 2nd opinions locally, but wondered what TFPers think about this plumbing pipe diameter problem that was explained to me today.

 

[Jimrahbe]

I spoke with my pool builder today. They didn't say it outright, but did imply that my 1.5" lines are not compatible with the intelliflo.

Is that really true? Besides using reducers, I ask because presently, my 1.5" lines come from the pool suction into a jandy valve which is 1.5".
However, a 2" slip coupler is used on the jandy output and is then slid over the pump intake. So that looks to me like that is 2" there.

They are also adding a significant margin to the pump cost.

I will probably get 2nd opinions locally, but wondered what TFPers think about this plumbing pipe diameter problem that was explained to me today.

Aaron,

A total load of bull... I have two rent houses that both have 1.5" plumbing and both have had 3 HP IntelliFlo pumps running for about 5 or 6 years without any problems..

A good analogy is them telling you that you can't drive your car through a school zone because your car has a 200 HP engine...

Even at full speed the IntelliFlo will not damage your plumbing.. But, if you want, you can just limit the top speed.

The whole point of having a VS pump is so that you can run it slow and save on your electrical costs.. Both rent houses have DE filters and the filter pressure at 1200 RPM is less than 5 PSI...

I am a big fan of VS pumps, but cost is one of the downsides... Another option would be to go for a 2-speed pump, which would still save on your electrical bill.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[aaron_w_o]

A 2nd pool installer today said this idea of intelliflo is not wise. He said he suspected I would have difficulty keeping the primer basket full of water, leading to premature bearing wear, etc.

Kinda shocking they don't want to sell me a 1000$ pump!!

I can see the power curve on the intelliflo and the gpm at low rpm could be something to wonder about... but then I hear real world experience like the 2 rental homes you described and I am scratching my head.

Both places I called today rathered to try and sell me a VS superlo(4 speeds not very compatible with easy touch.

I am suspicious and skeptical!!..!!

 

[Jimrahbe]

aaron,

I suspect they have a hard time understanding the difference between a 3 HP single speed pump and a 3 HP VS pump... I would agree that a 3 HP single speed pump is way more than you need, but this is not the case for a VS pump... In fact, it really should be called a Variable Horsepower pump... You just use the amount of HP you need...

I especially like the .. "He said he suspected I would have difficulty keeping the primer basket full of water, leading to premature bearing wear, etc." How is that even possible?? I can't see any validity in that remark at all... Why would the pump basket not stay full and even if it did not, it would not be the bearings that would fail anyway.

If the SuperFlo VS had an RS-485 com port, then that would be the pump that I would recommend. But since it does not, you really have no choice but to go with the IntelliFlo or a 2-Speed pump. I can tell you now, since you have ScreenLogic, you will kick yourself in the rear if you don't' get the IntelliFlo..

Here is a screen shot of my ScreenLogic pump speed page just for interest...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[aaron_w_o]

i am so frustrated with these shops.
so i can only get the 400$ utility rebate if i buy from them and have them install it.
they want 1800$ canadian for the pump, -400$ rebate.
ok great, 1400$ + tax and then like 150$ for the install.

whereas, i can order online from the USA and after currency conversion it is still cheaper! Jim, the sit eyou sent me would be 1170 after currency conversion.
i will not get a rebate, but that rebate isnt saving me money when they are ripping me off here.

is there some kind of threaded 2" union kit that goes with this pump? i have seen it in videos.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Aaron,

Here is a link to the 2" IntelliFlo pump unions... You would then need to have an adapter to reduce the 2" plumbing down to 1.5" plumbing, if that is what you currently have...

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwiT5obp0t7bAhVSnsAKHTGyCgQYABAXGgJpbQ&sig=AOD64_1uToZGjN62-nStxpAJfg8eilfmBA&ctype=5&rct=j&q=&ved=0ahUKEwiUh4Lp0t7bAhVCXq0KHUqVAUYQ9aACCD0&adurl=

Keep in mind that unless installed by a "professional" the pump will only have a 60 day warranty if bought on line... Sigh!!!

None of this sounds fair to me, but it is what it is...

Jim R.

 

[aaron_w_o]

thanks for the link to the unions.

as for the pump: it's clearly an industry that is fighting online retailers, the last of the few.
it's fine, i understand.

since i am not in the rebate space, i may as well take my time and watch out for a deal... maybe in the fall.
i will move my pump into the poolshed regardless, that will cut down the noise... then when practical, put in the intelliflo.

too bad... looks like the local shops formed a cartel, added a 400$ margin to the pumps when the city started giving 400$ rebates.
scam.
i can also buy online within canada. that is 1399$, which is still like 200 more than the site you sent me to. one co-worker said to me that the pump i have now will fail eventually, why not wait. i suppose... but would like to cut down the hydro bill.

going to keep reading and looking and maybe i will find someone locally who is registered with the utility who wants to cut a deal.

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi Aaron,
Just throwing my experience in here as well.
I have a 3 HP intelliflo and its super quiet, super efficient and literally, one of my better decisions Ive made.

A couple of my friends with pools have witnessed my pump, and eventually upgraded theirs to the intelliflo and they are super happy to.

I agree 100% with everything Jim has said and I'll add that if my Intelliflo failed tonight, I would have another one just like it on there tomorrow.

(And maybe the recommendations from your local pool people is because maybe their profit margin his higher by using other than intelliflo? I don't know, but people are in business to make the most money they can for the least cost. Just sayin...)

 

[Jimrahbe]

Aaron,

Even if you do not plan to buy a pump now, I would actually talk with the Hydo people and find out first hand what their requirements are for the rebate.. I know what their website says, but I have heard from others (not in Canada) that they will often accept installation when the pool owner can prove the pump has been installed correctly...

Worth a shot anyway...

Thanks and good luck with your decision..

Jim R.

 

[aaron_w_o]

Good idea, I will call utility today to discuss.

Get this: the other installer emailed me back today. (Not the one who said the primer basket would never fill). I had asked them what is the compatibility issue with 2" lines. They said there isn't one. But then they added the intelliflo could "blow up" my filter and plumbing due to high pressure at high rpm. Note my existing pump yields 15psi in my sand filter.

So one dealer saying that when I dial it back, it will be too low to fill basket and cause wear on pump. Another saying it could blow up my lines being too high. Specifically they said on a power outage, the pump could comeback on at full rpm accidentally. They also said it runs at full rom during prime phase/cycle.

Quite a story! They have also said there is a control cable for 100$ I can get to make the superflo vs somewhat controllable from the easy touch.

 

[CJadamec]

If you have easy touch don't settle for the control cable to a Superflo pump ( that cable was $50 US shipped to my door when I bought it). I love my SuperFlo pump don't get me wrong, its more than I ever thought I would want when I built my pool. I have industrial controls and was able to make my own relay system for the pump. If I had an Easy touch panel and could simple plug a comm wire into it and have all the controls built into the panel that's what I would do.

The pump you want is the Intelliflo pump even though it costs more. It will work sooo much better with your control system.

The pump basket not filling up isn't a pump problem its a suction line air leak problem. Once the pump finishes its priming cycle the basket will be full and should remain full the whole time it is running. The priming RPM is adjustable so you don't need to prime it at full RPM. I would try 2100RPM for priming and see how that goes.

 

[SMH2]

I just went thru this same dilemma. Self install the older intelliflo that I've seen for under 1k
Self install the Sta-Rite version Intellipro for 1200ish
Or have the pool builder install it with a 3 year warranty for several hundred dollars more.
I went the pool builder route got them to install it for $1400 during my opening. Figured I'd get a lemon and or the frustration of doing something simple as a swap out half the times turns into a bit more of a hassle then the money you save.
Plus I figure for the next three years I can just simply make a phone call if the thing craps out.
I gotta agree, the thing is great. Not sure on savings as I run the ac at the same time but according to the pump I am using only 20 percent the power being able to run at 2200RPMS versus the single speed I had before.

I don't know if a phone call to pentair to see exactly what the recommend and if they can get you in touch with an industry professional that shares their recommendation for you would help, but it's worth a shot.

 

[aaron_w_o]

I just had an interesting discussion with a 3rd retailer today. He was actually fine with putting intelliflo in my pool. Thought it was a great idea. However, he wanted me to use the VSF model, which is variable speed and flow.
He said he could do that for 1700$ tax in and installed. I have to assume he is already taking the 400$ rebate off the price but I asked him to confirm that with me tomorrow. He said the VSF is better because it will adapt to an ideal based on filter backpressure etc.

He told me the Intelliflo VS "only" is not stocked anymore, but he can get them. He said it is not eligible for the pentair 100$ rebate either, but that the VSF is.

So if I understood him, he'd do it for 1700$ and I could then chase down another 100$ from pentair. It is hard for me to compare quotes now without knowing for sure if he took the hydro rebate off. My guess is he did.

This leads me to my last comment: I called the hydro co. Myself to ask if they'd rebate individuals. They said no, but that an individual can become a member of the pool and spa council of Canada. At that point I could submit to them for a rebate. Ok. Sounds good? Well I looked into this. The pool and spa council of Canada is the "cartel" I previously described
As an individual, I can pay 260$ annually, as long as I can convince someone to refer me in, and join this group. Eats a big chunk into the 400$ rebate!
I could probably incorporate a small family owned business, say "Aaron's automation inc" and get some benefits from the pool council and some other wholesale deals on home automation products in general... but I digress. This council is who is responsible for the price setting and non-compete in my region.

And they obviously lobbied the electric co to keep rebates isolated to their membership.

So sad.

More to follow.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Re: single speed vs variable speed & intelliflo vs superflo

Aaron,

The VSF is the newest version of the IntelliFlo and the most expensive. I am sure it is a great pump, but we never recommend the original Variable Flow pump, because there was no advantage and just made things much more complicated. 90% of our members with the IntelliFlo pumps have the VS version.

I find it hard to believe that the original IntelliFlo is not on the Hydo list of approved pumps as you would think any VS pump would be.. Sounds like another call to the Hydo office for the "approved" list.

Sorry for the giant run around you are getting..

Jim R.

- - - Updated - - -

I just re-read you post.. I would have to assume that the $100 Pentair rebate only applies to the newer pumps..

 

[aaron_w_o]

I agree and I am back to the thought of:
Buy from USA at site you recommend.
Pay them exchange rate, bringing cost from 899$ usd to 1200$ cdn.

Install it myself and forget about the rest.
That is the cheapest route.
It leaves me with 60d warranty, no rebates, but oddly is still the cheapest way! I hope I could sell my single speed for 200$ Canadian and recover some money that way.