Really need advice re stains

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Thank you very much for the advice and empathy. Truly appreciated

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Y'all, please help me not want to fill this pool with dirt!

I've got staining on my pool floor, that gets worse with time. Dirty looking brown stains on my plaster pool's floor. For those not familiar with my plight, the plaster was new in January and my old dead heater was connected way too long without a bypass

I got rid of the stains with a no drain AA treatment in March

They came back
Had a pool guy out (25 yrs in the business) and he told me
1) that they were organic
2) that I should use United Chemicals Stain treat.

This feels wrong because I tried dichlor on the stains and Jack's stain ID 3 times and none of those indicated an organic source. And reading about Pool Stain Treat, it's described as a sequestrant and chelater, which doesn't seem to tell me it's treating organic stains. Calcium hardness test always goes purple, fill water and pool water (metal ions according to the blog post)


Researching this product led my down a rabbit hole of info on this site

I always seem to post several questions and only get a few answered each time so I'm hoping this goes better?

1) is AA more gentle than oxalic acid?
2) can I test for iron in my pool water and in my fill water?
3) how do I get rid of metals and metal ions in my water--is it to use a sequestrant and polyfil in a skimmer sock in the skimmer? This is the polyfil you buy for pillows and toys?
4) or do I just need to use a sequestrant regularly?
5) will filters that attach to my hose stop this problem when I add new after? If so are there any specific recommendations?


I'm losing my mind here. Please help

This pool guy seems extremely sincere in his belief that United Chemical Pool Stain Treat is the answer and that it can be used a few times a year without harm to the plaster. He says he's serviced pools that used it 2-3 times a year. He could've told me I need to drain and do an acid wash, so I don't think he's trying to scam me as much as maybe he's ill informed.

I only care about this pool for 3-5 years

I'm not saying I want to leave a mess for the next owner. I've tried so hard to do it all right to avoid that

But at the same time, I can't wait to unload this house and pool. And my finances are limited

Any info and advice appreciated. I have searched and read threads but sometimes too much info is as hard as not enough.

Thank you

 

[Texas Splash]

Sorry to see you're still struggling. Were you ever able to try some of the tests or contact Jack's as @JamesW recommended a while back? About your latest questions:

1) is AA more gentle than oxalic acid?

"IF" you were to confirm iron, stick to ascorbic acid. Oxalic acid isn't a good bulk treatment since it precipitates with the calcium in the pool. Spot treatments are acceptable.

2) can I test for iron in my pool water and in my fill water?

Fill more accurately. Pool water iron tends to get tricky with chlorine interferance.

3) how do I get rid of metals and metal ions in my water--is it to use a sequestrant and polyfil in a skimmer sock in the skimmer? This is the polyfil you buy for pillows and toys?

Iron - polyfill "IF" the particles are large enough to be filtered. Copper you can't filter. I believe we addressed this was discussed on page 1.

4) or do I just need to use a sequestrant regularly?

They can be beneficial to contain metals in solution. Some stains already embedded may not lft and need more aggressive treatment.

5) will filters that attach to my hose stop this problem when I add new after? If so are there any specific recommendations?

I doubt it in your situation. We highly suspect your water was compromised with copper from the old/bad heater. As such, you may need to perform the copper treatment and water exchange @JamesW recommended in post #9.

Your pool guy may have good intentions, but some of his recommendations aren't up to par.

 

[Texas Splash]

Looking at your last few Poolmath test logs, your FC fell to zero a couple times. That's a recipe for algae for sure in the TX heat. I may sound like a broken record here from page !, but it's important to keep the testing as simple as possible to keep you form getting overwhelmed. Here's a few tips:
1 - As we discussed with the CH test a while back, yes, the solution may turn purple for a while, but keep adding the R-012 until the solution turn a baby blue.
2 - Be sure oyu have no active algae issues due to the low FC level. Perform a new Overnight Chlorine Loss Test to confirm.
3 - Keep stain testing simple:
IRON - Test w/ Vitamin C tablet; usually from well water or olf metal plumbing. Seems unlikely in your area, but you never know.
COPPER - Attempt to test with pH Down; Spots are usually dark and chlorine can aggravate the stain.
ORGANIC - Rub w/ a chlorine tablet or sprinkle cal-hypo on the stain. If it doesn't change it's either not organic or already imbedded under scale in the plaster.

You've also tried with the Jack's ID Kit, so between these four methods you hope to ID the culprit.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Thanks

I've tried all the tests, multiple times and multiple ways and it's not clear what the stains are

And every time I dropped my FC to zero it was deliberate.

I was mainly wanting to understand the product recommended to me, and how it compares to AA and to understand how polyfil was to be used

 

[Texas Splash]

Gotcha, well, at this point with such a relatively new plaster job, my bet is on copper like James noted. I just don't see iron as an issue unless you filled from a well or had old plumbing which you shouldn't. Plus, iron reacts very well to the Vitamin C test. Organic stains would also react quickly to tabs or cal-hypo that was applied, so I think that's out. This brings us back to the worse one (IMO) which is copper due to the bad advice (and heater) you had right after the initial fill. Unfortunately copper is one of the toughest stains to remove. Even spot testing can be tricky. I mentioned trying pH Down as a test, but if get your hands on some sulfamic acid and try to apply it to a small spot as a test, that might work better.

The other wildcard in your case is the plaster job itself. You had doubts about the quality of work, so there's a chance that the staining might be related to the plaster mixture itself or how it was applied. Perhaps even the support materials underneath bleeding through. If that's the case there's nothing you can do at this point.

If it were me, I would wait until Jan/Feb and do the sulfamic acid pool treatment. You can allow the FC to drop in the cold water and then exchange the water after the treatment is complete to remove the sulfamic acid and hopefully copper. If it lifts the stains, the you know it was all from that heater.

 

[Texas Splash]

In the meantime, there's always this approach.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

In the photo below, there are obvious spots that were lightened by tablets. There are more than the ones I circled, but these are the most obvious. Depending on the device you're on, they may or may not be apparent. I assume they were trichlor, so unless they were there previously, either the chlorine or acid lightened the stains. Does this mean anything Pat?

 

[Texas Splash]

Does this mean anything Pat?

I can't see the color change as well as you Mike. But if that's true, then yes, the improvement from a tablet would be indicative of an organic stain, either on the surface or partially embedded by scale.

 

[JamesW]

I've tried all the tests, multiple times and multiple ways and it's not clear what the stains are

What exact tests did you do?

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

I can't see the color change as well as you Mike. But if that's true, then yes, the improvement from a tablet would be indicative of an organic stain, either on the surface or partially embedded by scale.

There are very apparent on my cell phone, not so much on PC. There are at least 10 lightened circles, some with the telltale comet trails heading downhill.

 

[Texas Splash]

some with the telltale comet trails heading downhill.

And that would be a sign of tannin from the dropping of seeds/acorns or something like that falling into the pool from a nearby tree. I'm on a PC right now so I'm not seeing it, but maybe @NewPoolGirlTX can confirm.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

The comet trails are from the tablets. Some of the lightened stains are comet-shaped.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

In the meantime, there's always this approach.

Oh BELIEVE ME. I am concussed at this point.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

In the photo below, there are obvious spots that were lightened by tablets. There are more than the ones I circled, but these are the most obvious. Depending on the device you're on, they may or may not be apparent. I assume they were trichlor, so unless they were there previously, either the chlorine or acid lightened the stains. Does this mean anything Pat?

View attachment 530359

Those aren't from chlorine or anything. The stains were never uniform, and there were always clean looking areas.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

The comet trails are from the tablets. Some of the lightened stains are comet-shaped.

what tablets? I don't use tablets. the only time I've used tablets were trying to test the stains.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

What exact tests did you do?

I did the Jack's stain ID kit 3 times, I tried Vitamin c tablets several times, and I tried pH Down several times, as well as granular dichlor.

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

Gotcha, well, at this point with such a relatively new plaster job, my bet is on copper like James noted. I just don't see iron as an issue unless you filled from a well or had old plumbing which you shouldn't. Plus, iron reacts very well to the Vitamin C test. Organic stains would also react quickly to tabs or cal-hypo that was applied, so I think that's out. This brings us back to the worse one (IMO) which is copper due to the bad advice (and heater) you had right after the initial fill. Unfortunately copper is one of the toughest stains to remove. Even spot testing can be tricky. I mentioned trying pH Down as a test, but if get your hands on some sulfamic acid and try to apply it to a small spot as a test, that might work better.

The other wildcard in your case is the plaster job itself. You had doubts about the quality of work, so there's a chance that the staining might be related to the plaster mixture itself or how it was applied. Perhaps even the support materials underneath bleeding through. If that's the case there's nothing you can do at this point.

If it were me, I would wait until Jan/Feb and do the sulfamic acid pool treatment. You can allow the FC to drop in the cold water and then exchange the water after the treatment is complete to remove the sulfamic acid and hopefully copper. If it lifts the stains, the you know it was all from that heater.

Thank you so for the advice.
I guess I thought all the sequestrants I have used got rid of the copper. Do you follow the Jack's Magic #2 for the sulfamic acid treatment? Then you say to exchange the water. How much water? I looked for a blog post, but didn't see one.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

what tablets? I don't use tablets. the only time I've used tablets were trying to test the stains.

That's an oxymoron.

I guess I'll just have to leave this with me being the only one that can see the light circles. Good luck!

 

[NewPoolGirlTX]

And that would be a sign of tannin from the dropping of seeds/acorns or something like that falling into the pool from a nearby tree. I'm on a PC right now so I'm not seeing it, but maybe @NewPoolGirlTX can confirm.

No tablets have been used. I only had one tablet at all and used it to test stains. Nothing I have tried has lifted the stains noticeably and immediately, they way all the tests say they should