pump not getting enough water flow for venture effect?

[gsborys]

Holy cow I think I found it... buried under mulch next to plumbing pad. Could this be the missing air control knob? Now how do fix it? How high above spa water level should it be? Is the female fitting just a part from hardware store?

 

[mas985]

Yes it is the control valve. The cut out is so air can get in and you just screw it down to adjust the air flow. You need to completely remove the winter plug and then see if it screws in and fire it up to see if it works any better. You can also leave it out but I guess you get some splash out if you do that? Once running though, you should be able to completely remove the valve for full bubbles.

 

[gsborys]

Holy cow! I may have found the missing air control knob. It was buried under mulch next to equipment pad. Does anyone know how high above the spa water level does it need to be? I measured the cracked 1.5" pvc pipe to be 3" above spa water level. Can i buy the female pvc fitting at the hardware store? Is water flow rate related to whether an spa air control inlet sucks air as opposed to just spit water out?

 

[mas985]

The air doesn't affect the flow rate much but it does affect how the jet stream feels. It breaks up the water flow to make pulsate more like a massage.

 

[gsborys]

I think i may have not explained my problem well. Here are the details.
Currently i have a cracked off 1.5" Pvc pipe 8" next to my inground spa rim and it is recessed 2" into concrete pool deck.
It currently has a winter plug in it that is easily removable.
There are not threads on the cracked pvc.
THe fitting that was around the 1.5" pipe was cracked at the same level.
Both the cracked fitting and pipe is 3" above spa water level.
If i slowly release the winter plug.... water squirts out.
If i remove the plug.... water gushes out.
My 6 spa jets feel weak when in SPA mode.
I have only a single 1HP pump for pool and spa with two Jandy valves that cut off pool jets and pool suctions when in SPA mode.
My only pump is about 25 feet from spa.
If i turn off pump and blow air into cracked pipe with wet/dry vac... then air bubbles come out of all 6 of my spa jets equally.
The recently found threaded plug is 2.375" outside diameter of the threads.
Is this cracked pipe for a water fountain or is it a spa air inlet?
If its a fountain what does the fitting look like?
If its a spa air control inlet then do i perhaps not enough water flow to create suction... or does this pipe have to be a minimum height above the water level?
Ultimately im trying to get my weak spa jets to feel more like massaging spa jets and also wondering what the heck is this ugly cracked piped buried next to my spa and how do i get it servicing again.

 

[mas985]

Ok most of these I understand. I missed the part that there was a cracked PVC pipe. So a few more questions:

If i slowly release the winter plug.... water squirts out.

When the pump is on or off or both?
When the valves are in pool or spa mode or both?

The recently found threaded plug is 2.375" outside diameter of the threads.
Is this cracked pipe for a water fountain or is it a spa air inlet?

Assuming we are still talking about the fitting that is next to the spa, then I think it is for the air inlet. You don't have another pipe that comes up near the spa that just has an air cap on it do you?

If its a spa air control inlet then do i perhaps not enough water flow to create suction

That was my assumption given the size of the pump and the plumbing size.

Ultimately im trying to get my weak spa jets to feel more like massaging spa jets and also wondering what the heck is this ugly cracked piped buried next to my spa and how do i get it servicing again.

With the ePump and a pad bypass, I think it is possible. We just need to figure out how to fix the air vent.

 

[gsborys]

water gushes out when the pump is on in either pool mode or spa mode.
water does not gush out when pump is off. i can see water about 3" down.
I don't have any other pipes or air inlets around pool or spa.
I think i can fix the the cracked pipe i just don't what the fittings look like or where the heck to get them or how high does the fitting need to be?
I don't know what i don't know.
I did not build the pool when it was built in 1998
I bought the house October of 2012
Did this air inlet never work and someone purposely kick it and break it?
if its flush with the deck... is that high enough for suction?
If it needs to be above the deck... then it become a trip hazard and ugly to look at.
a side note: I measured the spa jets exit orifice to be 9/16" on 5 of the jets and the 6th jet has two spinning holes 1/2" each.
Could that be way too big?

 

[mas985]

Follow up: Does the spa return valve close completely in pool mode or is there a spillover affect when in pool mode?

The height of the vent should not matter much if the venturi's work properly. You might get some surge backwards after the pump shuts off due to the low height but it shouldn't be gushing out as it does now.

a side note: I measured the spa jets exit orifice to be 9/16" on 5 of the jets and the 6th jet has two spinning holes 1/2" each.

Sounds link you are actually measuring the exit port and not the jet nozzle. The jet nozzle is several inches back from the spa wall. So you need to empty the spa below jet level to see the nozzle inside. Also, if the nozzles are missing, that could explain both the air vent gushing water and the weak jets.

Below is the anatomy of the common spa jet. The nozzle is 217-1060 in the picture. You may be measuring 215-1050. There are several different versions so yours may not look exactly like that.

 

[gsborys]

Update on new 2hp ePump installed.
SUCCESS!!! My spa feels like a spa... Here are the results.

Flow rates old 1HP pump 3450 rpm with clean filter.
Pool mode 81 gpm
Heater bypass 91 gpm
Spa mode 70 gpm
Heater bypass 75 gpm

Flow rates 2HP ePump
Pool mode 120 gpm@3450 rpm
81 gpm@2250 rpm
Heater bypass 150+ pegged @3450 rpm
99 @2250 rpm
Spa mode 90@3450 rpm
Heater bypass 99 gpm

Eventhough the spa jets are powerful, it did not fix the spa air intake issue I am having.
In addition I have an air blower the blows bubbles to ports in the floor of my spa. Does anyone know if this can be tied into the the spa return to get the air in the spa jet streams?

 

[mas985]

No you can't tie and air port into the returns. The air port is tied into the venturi jets through your broken valve. You need to fix that if you want bubbles in your jets.

 

[gsborys]

I'm puzzled on what I can fix now. The air inlet still squirts water if I open it. I never tried opening the air inlet with the air blower on. Never thought they were connected or related. Is this perhaps something I overlooked? I never owned a spa before or been in one prior to our new home... so I don't know how it's supposed to work. Maybe whoever installed this pool, installed the Venturi incorrectly or maybe they forgot to install one... I don't know. My understanding is that when in spa mode I should be able to open the air inlet and adjust how much air gets injected into spa jets streams. That is not happening right now so maybe the Venturi is slightly clogged. Should I plug 5 of the 6 jets and then blow air into the 6th jet while opening air inlet? Because if I turn off pump and the blow air into the air inlet ... I do get bubbles coming out of all 6 jets.

 

[mas985]

The jet air inlet is probably not connected to the blower. Being so close to the spa, the jets need a blower. The only reason to use a blower is because the jets or bubblers in this case, cannot get enough air with a passive air pipe.

One of the reasons that the air pipe squirts water is because the valve cap is broken. If you had the threaded cap installed, this should prevent most of the water from jumping out. But because the pool deck is above water level, there should not be any water pouring out of that valve, correct? When the pump first turns on, there may be a little water than jumps out but once the venturi's get going, they should be sucking air through that port. If after some time, there is still water coming out of the air port, then you may be right in that there is some debris in the air line which is clogging the jets. Given the broken pipe and the location of the air inlet, this is a pretty good possibility. One thing to try is to remove all the jet nozzles (deep inside the spa wall) and run the jets to see if you can flush out the debris.

 

[gsborys]

i did completely remove all the jet nozzles yesterday, coincidently, with new pump on, to document flow rate(150+gpm pegged). I would think the winter plug I have in there now works similar to a threaded cap. With the pump on... if I slowly open the plug, then water squirts out, and if I remove the plug completely, then water comes gushing out like a water main break( I mean A LOT of water gushes out, flooding my in deck in a few seconds)... which causes me to hurry and turn off the pump because the force is too strong for me to put the plug back in. I'm starting to believe that the passive air pipe was installed incorrectly or maybe its not an air inlet at all, its a water fountain outlet. Maybe this dilemma is the reason the previous home owner put this house up for sale and we are the new suckers. I will try to force and suck air/water from every outlet and every jet in every direction considering all combinations to push or pull debris out. If this does not work, i think i may have to consent to defeat. I really don't think anything is clogged because all 6 jet are flowing strong and if i turn off pump and blow air into the spa inlet (with winter plug removed of course) then all 6 jets get air bubbles.

 

[mas985]

I seriously doubt you are getting 150 GPM from that plumbing and that pump. 150 GPM is the pump run out and the only way to get that flow rate is to run the pump with very little head loss. I suspect the meter may not be working properly. What is the range on the flow meter?

I really don't think anything is clogged because all 6 jet are flowing strong and if i turn off pump and blow air into the spa inlet (with winter plug removed of course) then all 6 jets get air bubbles.

The air vent doesn't make the jets stronger, it just makes them bubble so they pulsate. Also, the jets would still feel strong even if the air vent was clogged as when you plug the air vent. Anyway, there is no way to know for sure exactly how they plumbed the spa and if it ever worked properly. But keep in mind that the venturi's will not work without all the nozzles installed. So when water was gushing out was that with or without the nozzles installed? And by nozzle I mean the part number 217-1060 in this drawing and not the wall fitting:

 

[gsborys]

The 40 to 150gpm flow meter may or may not be accurate, however it does give a me reference. If I remove all 6 jets 217-1060, why is hard to believe that I can get 150gpm on a 2HP x 1.35 service factor pump (the chart shows I can have 40 feet of head loss at 150gpm)? I fully understand that injecting air will not make my jets stronger... and all my tests (except one reading)with the air vent were done with the 217-1060 and 215-1060 installed. I know you have to ask, but Yes, all the jet parts were installed when water comes squirting or gushing out of the air vent. Remember I already took my wet/dry vac and blew into the air inlet (while pump is off) and all 6 jets had a lot of bubbles coming out so I don't believe anything is clogged. As a side note: all of my 215-1050 turns 90 degrees to open and close an internal shutter that reduces or increasing water flow. I made sure all 6 of the shutters were wide open during my air vent tests.

 

[mas985]

Because at 150 GPM, 75+' of 2" pipe with fittings and the filter would produce much more than 40' of head. What was the filter pressure reading when the flow gauge read 150 GPM?

 

[gsborys]

are we getting off topic, or should I get the reading? I will have time tonight when I get home. The filter is clean and its 450 sqft, how much head do you think I have?

 

[mas985]

It's up to you. If you are interested in the accuracy of the flow meter then the filter pressure will help me determine the total head loss.

But as far as the air vent issue, ideally, you will want to try and get that to work. It is pretty clear that the venturi's are not creating a suction and drawing in the air so the water just pushes out the air vent. So there is definitely something wrong with either the venturi's or the air vent.

 

[gsborys]

You were correct, The flow rate is in spa mode 115gpm@3450rpm with a 23psi at filter with all jets removed and air inlet removed. The water does not gush out of the air inlet with all jets removed and pump on. It does start to gush out of air inlet with 5 jets installed and pump on. I drained the spa, turned the pump off and I winter plugged 5 jet outlets and blew air into the 6th jet outlet.... and i did this to each of the jet outlets and every time water sprayed up out of the air inlet port at least 10 feet up in the air. I also vacuumed the air inlet and none of these things fixed the air inlet. I don't know what else I can possibly do next?

 

[mas985]

If the venturi's are working properly without the jets, then I might suspect one or more the jets to be defective. ALL of the jets must work properly without restriction or water may back out of the air vent.

But one clarification, did you try running the jets with the insert but without the end fitting as shown in the last picture and the top jet?

Also, the second picture looks like there is something in the insert.