Pool Pump Air Confusion

[oakpoolview]

Hi!

I’ve recently had a new concrete pool installed and completed back in June 2023, and we’ve had some little issues here and there that we were able to troubleshoot ourselves but we’re really struggling on a recent problem.

All our equipment is brand new, but recently we keep having issues with bubbles/air continuing to accumulate in the pool pump transparent lid area. Every time I open up the pump lid and the filter lid, rinse down the already spot clean filter and start it up again all the air/bubbles go away. But over several days it builds back up again. We had our pool contractor come out and he said it was normal to have about an inch of air (from the lid downward) bubbling around in the pump. He says if it were to get down to the basket area then it’s a bigger problem.

We don’t allow it to get to that point before we “clean” it and start it back up again. I’ve tried the hose over all the valves test, o rings are new and everything is well lubed up. Sometimes I notice little bits of air coming from deeper down in the pool pump (maybe where the water comes from the pipes?) and then floats to the top to add to the existing bubbles. Also after “cleaning” the filter that’s always clean, the pump starts up and runs for a minute or two before it starts making a whining/grinding noise so the pool contractor advised to turn the pump off, let it flush itself and then start up which usually resolves that issue. Is that normal too? Is any of this normal? We’re very new to owning pools and never really got much of a pool school until recently when we’ve had these issues. We always keep the filter clean, just bought a replacement because the pool contractor said maybe there’s a calcium build up or microparticles that could be keeping the filter dirty even though to the naked eye it’s super clean.

Always running the pool vacuum, skimming, etc. The pool is caged but we have dirt that seems to get in from the yard and other various things through the screen. We also have a robot skimmer that runs all day to keep it extra clean.

Attached are photos of the setup and such.
Sorry for the novel, I hope someone has some insight because we’re worried there’s a leak somewhere in the lines that we cannot see. TIA!

 

[ajw22]

What speeds are your pump running when the bubble forms?

Try scheduling your pump to run at high speed for 5 minutes daily. That should clear the bubble for the day.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Oak,

Most VS pumps have bubbles under the lid when run at low RPMs..

Tell me what speed you are running the pump?

Do you have it set to run one speed or several speeds?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[oakpoolview]

Thanks for the quick replies @ajw22 and @Jimrahbe ! Our pool contractor said since it’s a variable speed pump to utilize it so it starts at 8AM-10AM with 2300rpm then at 10AM-12PM it’s at 2625rpm, followed by 12PM-2PM at 2300rpm and finishing the day from 2PM-5PM at 2000rpm. Attached is the schedule and the pump info.

 

[oakpoolview]

Also @ajw22 I only notice the bubbles once I check it in the afternoon so for instance, in the morning I do my water tests and I’ll see what the pump air situation is then I’ll come back in the late afternoon to check what it ends with for the day.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Oak,

That is an odd schedule...

You are basically running at close to the same speed all day...

When I said that VS pumps often had bubbles at low speeds, I was talking about 1200 RPM or less.

I can't tell if you have an air leak that is causing your problem or not, but, one way to reduce the problem is to run at almost full speed once or twice a day for 5 or 10 minutes... I would suggest 3000 RPM.. This will purge any air in the pump. This does not fix the cause of the problem, but it means you no longer have to constantly check the pump lid and worry about it running out of water.

It seems that you are seeing the problem when the pump is running at its slowest speed of 2000 RPM

Does the pump go through a prime cycle when it starts up at 8 am??

Do you know why the pool builder set up those speeds?

What happens between 10 am and 12 pm that requires 2625 RPM

Why does the pump run at 2000 between 2 pm and 5 pm?

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[oakpoolview]

Jim,

All of this is a mystery to us as well haha. We were advised to run it between 2000-2800rpm per day and give it some variation between there so there’s only so many numbers to choose from and that’s what they said to set them at. I’m not sure if it has something to do with the fact we have a bubbler in the sunshelf (which we were also advised to keep it wide open all the time because restricting the valve could cause air and wear on it) and also 3 other jets across the pool.

I saw on here the other day to try the 3000rpm thing to clear the bubbles which it did but when I tried it today, it did nothing for it.

Yes, it goes through a prime cycle at 8am and usually goes up to 2700 or so.

Pool builder never gave us a reason why the schedule is the way they wanted it. The 10-12 schedule with the 2625rpm I believe was they said during the summer it’s best to get the chlorine pumping through before we get to the hottest point of the day. And then the 2-5 at 2000 as a ramp down for the day.

The pool isn’t very large, it’s a salt pool at 14ftx33ft but the sun shelf takes up a 7x11 portion of it. From 3ft to 5.5ft. Estimated 12500 gallons. Not sure if any of that information helps.

 

[JJ_Tex]

Have you lubed the o-ring for the lid? That is a common source of those air bubbles. With that said, it does not seem to be a problem so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I would also look at your RPMs and schedules. Consider playing around with the "Startup 1" at a much lower RPM, just enough to keep the skimmer weir door open. In the least, that should save you quite a bit of $ since at low speeds your pump will use the same amount of electricity as a ceiling fan.

You also need to run high enough to activate the SWG which should also be much lower.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Oak,

Pretty typical pool builder thinking...

We believe that you should run the pump for a specific reason.

As an example... You have a SWCG. This means you need to run the pump at a speed that will turn on the SWCG and for as long as it takes to make the chlorine your pool uses each day. In my case, I run a 1200 RPM and 24/7, as I like to make a little chlorine all the time, and I like to skim all the time. I also like the look of my pool water when there is a little motion. The cost for me to run 24/7 is less than $20 bucks a month.. The slower you can run the pump, the less it costs to run it.

I have a waterfall wall, that I don't use often, but when I do, I have a speed for that. The wife and like to float in our pool, and we like the water to move like a lazy river, so I have a speed for that.

The point being that each speed should do something. There is no reason to run different speeds if they are not doing something. That said, it won't hurt anything, but it just make little sense.

What is your normal filter pressure?

Do you normally run with the vac connected or not?

As a test you could try to run with just your skimmer for a day or so and see how things work. Just keep your vac line and main drain line shut off. The you could try running from just the main drain and see what happens for a day.

As another test, you should try running your pump at 1500 or less and see what the air bubbles do..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[proavia]

Fill out your signature with pool, pool equipment (including manufacturers and model numbers) and test kit info.
This will assist us in providing you help without needing to ask for this info each time.
Be as specific as possible. You can look at my signature and others for inspiration.

https://www.troublefreepool.com/account/signature

Don't forget to include automation and heater (if you have either) and SWG capacity.
A few pics of your equipmemt pad from a few different angles may also help.

Chances are you can run most of the time at a lower RPM, while still fast enough to satisfy the SWG flow switch.
The scheduled speeds the builder set up make little sense.

 

[oakpoolview]

Have you lubed the o-ring for the lid? That is a common source of those air bubbles. With that said, it does not seem to be a problem so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I would also look at your RPMs and schedules. Consider playing around with the "Startup 1" at a much lower RPM, just enough to keep the skimmer weir door open. In the least, that should save you quite a bit of $ since at low speeds your pump will use the same amount of electricity as a ceiling fan.

You also need to run high enough to activate the SWG which should also be much lower.

Thanks for the reply!
Both the lid and threads on the pool pump have been lubed, same with the cartridge filter. I bought a replacement O ring for the pool pump to have on hand but the one on the pump right now looks brand new to me and pool contractor said so as well. I had no idea that this schedule was considered to be high, except for recently when the bubbler is fully open and it’s making the pool into a rocky ocean. The SWG has always bubbled furiously in its transparent lid area, is that possibly due to the high rpm’s?

 

[oakpoolview]

Oak,

Pretty typical pool builder thinking...

We believe that you should run the pump for a specific reason.

As an example... You have a SWCG. This means you need to run the pump at a speed that will turn on the SWCG and for as long as it takes to make the chlorine your pool uses each day. In my case, I run a 1200 RPM and 24/7, as I like to make a little chlorine all the time, and I like to skim all the time. I also like the look of my pool water when there is a little motion. The cost for me to run 24/7 is less than $20 bucks a month.. The slower you can run the pump, the less it costs to run it.

I have a waterfall wall, that I don't use often, but when I do, I have a speed for that. The wife and like to float in our pool, and we like the water to move like a lazy river, so I have a speed for that.

The point being that each speed should do something. There is no reason to run different speeds if they are not doing something. That said, it won't hurt anything, but it just make little sense.

What is your normal filter pressure?

Do you normally run with the vac connected or not?

As a test you could try to run with just your skimmer for a day or so and see how things work. Just keep your vac line and main drain line shut off. The you could try running from just the main drain and see what happens for a day.

As another test, you should try running your pump at 1500 or less and see what the air bubbles do..

Thanks,

Jim R.

Jim,

Everything you said makes a ton of sense, I wish I knew this from the beginning. We have nothing super fancy other than the bubbler, although I’d love a waterfall! But that bubbler runs all day with the jets (separate valves so I can turn it off if I want but like you, I love the movement in the water).

Filter pressure usually hovers between 8-15 depending on the day. Super clean filter with my schedule, most likely an 8 all day. As the filter gets dirty, we clean it once it’s consistently showing 15. We’re fanatically cleaning the pool even now when we aren’t using it (no heater, 65 degrees currently).

I should’ve mentioned the vacuum is a pool robot, Dolphin nautilus CC. We have a port in the pool near the skimmer for a physical vacuum but between the pool robot and the skimming robot plus our own scrubbing and such, it stays fairly clean. We haven’t installed grass yet around the pool so it’s a bit of a dirt landscape vibe currently, just waiting until it’s warmer so the grass stays alive.

I’ll definitely try those tests starting tomorrow since I’ve got the pump to have no air in it again by just opening up the pump lid and the filter lid, lightly hosed down the filter and started it back up. No air. Photos in initial post are right before I opened everything up.

 

[oakpoolview]

Fill out your signature with pool, pool equipment (including manufacturers and model numbers) and test kit info.
This will assist us in providing you help without needing to ask for this info each time.
Be as specific as possible. You can look at my signature and others for inspiration.

https://www.troublefreepool.com/account/signature

Don't forget to include automation and heater (if you have either) and SWG capacity.
A few pics of your equipmemt pad from a few different angles may also help.

Chances are you can run most of the time at a lower RPM, while still fast enough to satisfy the SWG flow switch.
The scheduled speeds the builder set up make little sense.

I just did this, I couldn’t figure out how until you provided the link. Very much appreciated! I’m starting to learn that I’ll have to experiment more with the equipment to cater it to our specific pool other than the recommendations of the pool builder. Just slightly worried we had a dud installed or something.

 

[proavia]

Just slightly worried we had a dud installed or something.

Maybe a dud installer or something ...

Pool builders may be good at building pools, but not very good at knowing how to set up equipment.
And most are still giving advice from the 1970's and 1980's.

We can certainly help you get your system set up to do what it needs to do and possibly save you $$$ too.
We can also help you keep your pool properly sanitized and trouble free.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Filter pressure usually hovers between 8-15 depending on the day. Super clean filter with my schedule, most likely an 8 all day. As the filter gets dirty, we clean it once it’s consistently showing 15.

Oak,

Sounds to me like your filter is getting dirty way too fast..

It could be because you live in the land of the 'dinky' pool filters, or something in your pool is clogging the filter you have very quickly.

Filter pressure is NOT how well the pump is working, but rather how hard it is for the pump to push water through the filter and the plumbing back to the pool.. The higher the pressure the less water flow there is. And... as the back-pressure builds up the bubbles under the pump lid get bigger.

Just as a reference, with my CCP-520 filter, at 1200 RPM, my filter pressure is about 1 lb. on a 30 lb. gauge.

Is your water clear or cloudy??

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[oakpoolview]

Oak,

Sounds to me like your filter is getting dirty way too fast..

It could be because you live in the land of the 'dinky' pool filters, or something in your pool is clogging the filter you have very quickly.

Filter pressure is NOT how well the pump is working, but rather how hard it is for the pump to push water through the filter and the plumbing back to the pool.. The higher the pressure the less water flow there is. And... as the back-pressure builds up the bubbles under the pump lid get bigger.

Just as a reference, with my CCP-520 filter, at 1200 RPM, my filter pressure is about 1 lb. on a 30 lb. gauge.

Is your water clear or cloudy??

Thanks,

Jim R.

Jim,

The water is always clear and never cloudy, sometimes there’s like stuff on the surface that looks like dirt or something but we’ve been keeping a filter sock on the skimmer basket to capture that which I believe is just dirt. We didn’t have this issue during the summer which is weird but now we’re having it during the time we don’t use the pool.

On average I usually clean the filter every week but recently it hasn’t been getting very dirty. We bought a unicel replacement filter but it seems to be too tight to fit. The pool contractor said that during the first 6 months when everything is fluctuating and we’re getting used to the pool, there’s a possibility that microparticles are keeping the filter dirty so I’m not sure. I’ll have to see what the PSI is when it’s running on a low rpm instead.

 

[oakpoolview]

Morning update:
I changed the schedule to go from 7AM-12AM so a longer schedule at 1500 rpm, and an afternoon 3000rpm at 4:00-4:15 so we’ll see how that runs today.

A couple extra questions that I thought of this morning, if there was a leak in the plumbing would air get in gradually while the pool pump is off? Because last night there was no air and then this morning there’s still no air in the lid.
Also would changing the jet eyes make sense if we don’t get very good flow around the pool from the 3 jets? We currently have 1/2in.

 

[oakpoolview]

Current pool filter pressure gauge while running at 1500rpm, the SWG transparent lid looks to have good flow and the bubbler is making a nice movement in the pool on this foggy morning.

 

[Jimrahbe]

A couple extra questions that I thought of this morning, if there was a leak in the plumbing would air get in gradually while the pool pump is off? Because last night there was no air and then this morning there’s still no air in the lid.

Oak,

There are different types of air leaks.. Most of the time, when pumps have too much air in them, it is a suction side air leak. The suction side is under a vacuum, so when the pump is off, there is no air leak..

Typically, when pools filters clog very quickly, it is due to an algae bloom. You initially do not see any green at first.. The more often you clean the filter, the longer it takes for the algae to become visible.. Cleaning your filter every week is just insane and something you should not have to do.

The pic of your pool water does not look clear to me, but then it is hard to tell just looking at a pic. My thought is that you should test your water quality and make sure that you do not have an algae bloom.

How do you test your water quality now? Tell me what the following readings are:

FC
CC
pH
TA
CC
CYA
Salt

Who maintains the water quality now?

Edit.. With a speed of 1500, and a clean filter, your pressure looks pretty good to me.. But... It should stay that way... If the pressure starts going up in just a few days, that is a pretty good indication that you have algae. When filter pressure goes up quickly, it is almost never a mechanical problem, it is a chemical problem.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[oakpoolview]

Oak,

There are different types of air leaks.. Most of the time, when pumps have too much air in them, it is a suction side air leak. The suction side is under a vacuum, so when the pump is off, there is no air leak..

Typically, when pools filters clog very quickly, it is due to an algae bloom. You initially do not see any green at first.. The more often you clean the filter, the longer it takes for the algae to become visible.. Cleaning your filter every week is just insane and something you should not have to do.

The pic of your pool water does not look clear to me, but then it is hard to tell just looking at a pic. My thought is that you should test your water quality and make sure that you do not have an algae bloom.

How do you test your water quality now? Tell me what the following readings are:

FC
CC
pH
TA
CC
CYA
Salt

Who maintains the water quality now?

Thanks,

Jim R.

Jim,

Very interesting, that’s good to know. So maybe it’s a suction side issue.
I’m not sure how clean it is right now considering I did a light hose down of the filter last night and this morning it’s showing 1-2psi at 1500rpm, but I’ll keep an eye on it.

Picture doesn’t do it justice, it makes it look way different than it is in person. In person the pool is crystal clear, just very foggy and not much sun out yet. I’ll try to take a better picture this afternoon when the sun is fully out. But I took another just now that I’ll include in this reply.

We go through Pinch a Penny to monitor our water quality, we were told we have to get a water quality report weekly so we can upkeep our warranty so they’re constantly checking it for us. I’ll include a picture of our recent report from 1/29/24 so less than a week ago. Usually they recommend what we need to do to keep it at the best quality, which recently has been acid since it’s been raining more often.

Also another picture of the pump lid with just a couple small bubbles, nothing new since I started it this morning.