Pool Electrical Issues

[mcleod]

@Dirk was looking over my shoulder (via FaceTime) while I replumbed my pad, and he spotted what might be an issue with my electrical. He wrote this but I'm posting it so it's in my thread.

So our fellow member @mcleod was getting ready to reconnect his newish Intelli-pump, after replumbing his pad, and he was telling me he recently had an electrician install a sub panel for his pool, by his pad. His main circuit breaker panel has a non-GFI 30A breaker feeding his pool pad. The new sub-panel by the pad looks to have some sort of 30A GFI breaker, but it is not the Pentair GFI breaker.

That breaker feeds his two-timer box, his pool light, and a GFI outlet (somewhere on the pad). I noticed that there seemed to be a mix of 12G and 14G wires in the timer box, and that set off my alarms.

Firstly: can he run his Intelli-pump on 12G wires?

And I'm assuming his outlet/pool light circuit can be 14G.

But NONE of those wires should be connected directly to that 30A breaker! Right?

That's how it must have been done before he got the new sub-panel, so I think it's been wrong all this time. The electrician must have missed this, and put in a 30A sub panel because it was always a 30A circuit. The very odd thing is: that after alerting @mcleod to this potential issue, he had the same electrician come out to inspect the timer box. And he said everything is fine!? He ended up moving one of the wires that is running his equipment (I don't know which), but still didn't catch this issue of 12G and 14G wires coming off that 30A breaker!

Am I missing something? The timer box doesn't have any of its own breakers. I think he needs a new sub-panel box, with a 30A breaker as the sub-panel "disconnect", and then two more breakers: the Pentair 20A for the pump and SWG, and a 15A breaker driving the outlet and pool light. Or perhaps the SWG could be on its own dedicated breaker, too?

Or, it could be wired like mine, without a "main disconnect" at the sub panel, just the 20A GFI and 15A, with the existing 30A breaker back in his main breaker panel serving as the disconnect for the sub panel.

And I think he should have someone qualified open up the new sub panel, too, and confirm that is being fed by, what, 10G wires I think. I think two different electricians, decades apart, got this wrong, and I don't trust either one of them to make it right. There was a pool guy, too, involved, that installed the pump and SWG, and he must have missed this, too!! I think each worker just added on to what was there, assuming the previous guy had done things right.

Am I crazy, or is his wiring not only wrong (not up to code), but potentially dangerous?

@mcleod & @Dirk

 

[proavia]

Can you post a picture of the inside of the "subpanel"?
How far is this subpanel from the main breaker box?
Are there 4 wires (2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 ground) run from the main panel to the subpanel?
What gauge wire runs from the main panel to the subpanel?

30 amp breaker requires at least 10 AWG wire (maybe larger based on length of wire run from main panel to subpanel).

There can be a 30 amp non-GFCI breaker at the main panel serving this subpanel circuit (at long as the wire size is appropriate.

At the subpanel:

• The pump and SWG should be protected by its own 240v 20 amp GFCI breaker and use 12 AWG wire.
• The outlet and pool light should be on a 120v 15 amp non-GFCI breaker - as long as the outlet is a GFCI and the pool light is wired after the GFCI outlet.

The "subpanel" box shown in your picture can not accommodate a 240v and a 120v breaker. Your would need a subpanel with at least 3 circuit breaker slots as a 240v CB takes up 2 slots and a 120v CB takes up one slot.

Let's tag @Dirk as well so he sees this....

 

[Dirk]

Can you post a picture of the inside of the "subpanel"?
How far is this subpanel from the main breaker box?
Are there 4 wires (2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 ground) run from the main panel to the subpanel?
What gauge wire runs from the main panel to the subpanel?

30 amp breaker requires at least 10 AWG wire (maybe larger based on length of wire run from main panel to subpanel).

There can be a 30 amp non-GFCI breaker at the main panel serving this subpanel circuit (at long as the wire size is appropriate.

At the subpanel:

• The pump and SWG should be protected by its own 240v 20 amp GFCI breaker and use 12 AWG wire.
• The outlet and pool light should be on a 120v 15 amp non-GFCI breaker - as long as the outlet is a GFCI and the pool light is wired after the GFCI outlet.

The "subpanel" box shown in your picture can not accommodate a 240v and a 120v breaker. Your would need a subpanel with at least 3 circuit breaker slots as a 240v CB takes up 2 slots and a 120v CB takes up one slot.

Let's tag @Dirk as well so he sees this....

That is exactly what I was thinking. (And exactly how my pool is wired, sub panel size and all.)

The only thing I don't know for sure, on @mcleod set up, is if the pump and SWG are wired for 240 or 120V. His pump is wired with one black, one white and one green, but that doesn't mean his pump installer didn't use the white as the other leg of 240.

According to @mcleod, the 30A breaker in his main panel is taking up two slots, so that indicates 240 at the pad. But is there such a thing as a single-slot 240V 30A breaker? (The one that is in his sub panel.)

I think he doesn't need a main disconnect in the sub panel. A 240V 20A Pentair breaker and and a 120V 15A breaker should be sufficient. But as we've both pointed out, his new sub panel is a slot short for that.

I'm a bit P.O'd that his electrician missed all this, TWICE! I recommended finding a pool electrician specialist, perhaps by engaging a local pool builder, but @mcleod has said there are not many (any?) around. And I'm not sure I'd want that same electrician coming back again!!

I also started down a bonding exploration path with @mcleod, as I don't have a lot of confidence that was ever done completely either. I think his new pump is bonded, or will be when he puts his pad back together, but I'm not sure all those boxes on his wall (SWG transformer, timer, and whatever else) have ever been bonded.

He can speak for himself, but he's indicted he's not super-confident making the necessary electrical corrections himself.

 

[mcleod]

Can you post a picture of the inside of the "subpanel"?
How far is this subpanel from the main breaker box?
Are there 4 wires (2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 ground) run from the main panel to the subpanel?
What gauge wire runs from the main panel to the subpanel?

30 amp breaker requires at least 10 AWG wire (maybe larger based on length of wire run from main panel to subpanel).

There can be a 30 amp non-GFCI breaker at the main panel serving this subpanel circuit (at long as the wire size is appropriate.

At the subpanel:

• The pump and SWG should be protected by its own 240v 20 amp GFCI breaker and use 12 AWG wire.
• The outlet and pool light should be on a 120v 15 amp non-GFCI breaker - as long as the outlet is a GFCI and the pool light is wired after the GFCI outlet.

The "subpanel" box shown in your picture can not accommodate a 240v and a 120v breaker. Your would need a subpanel with at least 3 circuit breaker slots as a 240v CB takes up 2 slots and a 120v CB takes up one slot.

Let's tag @Dirk as well so he sees this....

Can you post a picture of the inside of the "subpanel"? See the first three pics below
How far is this subpanel from the main breaker box? The main panel is in the garage. Pool subpanel about 75' or so from main.
Are there 4 wires (2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 ground) run from the main panel to the subpanel? There appears to be. See 4th attached pic.
What gauge wire runs from the main panel to the subpanel? I don't know if the first pic below helps.
The wires from the subpanel seem to be 10 gauge. I've determined this from seeing a "10AWG" marking on the wire. the first three pics (l-r) are of the sub-panel from the left side to the right. The 4th pic is of the timer box. The 5th pic is where the subpanel wires enter.


@Dirk

 

[proavia]

This may be the breaker in his pic

Amazon.com

240v, 2 pole, GFCIwith a single lever on one side only.

If the pump and/or SWG are set for 120v, they would need to be on a single pole breaker.

Assumimg the pump and SWG are 240v, they can be powered by the same 20 amp breaker (only ONE wire attached to each lug on the breaker - use a pigtail if needed for multiple wires). Since he has a VS pump, it should be receiving constant power. The VS pump power can come from the LINE side of the timer, but not the switched LOAD side.

Additionally, in a subpanel, there needs to be a neutral bar that is not connected to ground. All neutral wires fo to the neutral bar and all grounds go to a separate ground bar.
Proper grounding is essential for safety and good power quality. Neutral is the return path of the current, and ground wire holds the fault current to trip the breaker in protecting the person and the subpanel. The neutral and ground should never be on the same bus bar except for the main panel.

Probably lots not quite right with this install. And if the OP isn't comfortable around electricity (as many aren't), a QUALIFIED pool electrician should be consulted. This thread should be provided to that electrician as well.

 

[mcleod]

That is exactly what I was thinking. (And exactly how my pool is wired, sub panel size and all.)

The only thing I don't know for sure, on @mcleod set up, is if the pump and SWG are wired for 240 or 120V. His pump is wired with one black, one white and one green, but that doesn't mean his pump installer didn't use the white as the other leg of 240.

According to @mcleod, the 30A breaker in his main panel is taking up two slots, so that indicates 240 at the pad. But is there such a thing as a single-slot 240V 30A breaker? (The one that is in his sub panel.)

I think he doesn't need a main disconnect in the sub panel. A 240V 20A Pentair breaker and and a 120V 15A breaker should be sufficient. But as we've both pointed out, his new sub panel is a slot short for that.

I'm a bit P.O'd that his electrician missed all this, TWICE! I recommended finding a pool electrician specialist, perhaps by engaging a local pool builder, but @mcleod has said there are not many (any?) around. And I'm not sure I'd want that same electrician coming back again!!

I also started down a bonding exploration path with @mcleod, as I don't have a lot of confidence that was ever done completely either. I think his new pump is bonded, or will be when he puts his pad back together, but I'm not sure all those boxes on his wall (SWG transformer, timer, and whatever else) have ever been bonded.

He can speak for himself, but he's indicted he's not super-confident making the necessary electrical corrections himself.

Speaking to the bonding (and here I thought you were talking friendship.) to my eye there is a copper wire to the pump and one into a rebar in the ground (ending?). On the SWG power box, there is a place to connect a bonding wire, however it is not connected to anything.

 

[Dirk]

Our bond of friendship is as strong as ever! But, you know, you touch the wire first, and I'll be right behind you just in case.

I'll walk you through how to bond everything, it's pretty simple. But it's another sign of the skill/knowledge level of the installers and electricians you've had to deal with. Maybe put some time into calling around to see if you can find a pool electrician: seek references from pool stores, pool builders, pool maintenance companies, etc. Maybe even expand your search. Find the right guy a few towns over and see when he'll next be in your area, or what it would take to get him to travel.

 

[Poolbreh]

Do you use the booster pump? What kind of intelliflo pump? It looks like the sub panel will have to be redone with adequate space. What size breaker from the main panel? If it was my pool I would have removed timers and placed the sub panel there and upgraded to an intelliflo 3 with io but this depends on if the booster pump is still used.