Phosphates Effect on SWG % setting?

[MichaelT20]

Hi all,
This post might be more appropriate on the Deep End section, but I was curious so starting here .

I test my pool water daily (sometimes twice a day lol) and it should all be available in my signature. I'm pretty diligent with most tests. FC and PH daily (since i know my ph rises quickly). Calcium and CYA less often. TA somewhere in between. (I Know my TA is a smidge high, I'm working on it, I have high TA in my fill water, and the cool nights + heater + lack of rain in the NE has lead to lots of re-filling lately).

I rarely test CC but when I do its with the 10ml measure, and if theres even a hint of pink I record 0.5 -- I doubt my CC is ever really that high, because I really have to strain to make out some pink in there. So if you see 0.5cc on a few of my test results, keep this in mind.

Went to <The store that shall not be named> to pick up some supplies today, and for giggles brought some water. They were surprisingly close on CYA and TA and PH, but they were lower on FC/CH than my taylor kit. I trust the taylor, not worried there. Was also happy to see 0.0 Iron and 0.2 copper (Which is the same levels it was at when I first filled my pool last year).

They also reported 4000 for phosphates. I know the general advice here is not to worry about them, and gather that if you're about 2500 you can treat *if you want* but its not necessary. I also know we don't *generally* trust "their" machines . Is it worth investing in the taylor kit for phosphate ? Or should I just not waste my time?

Since i always keep my FC on the high end (Aim for 6-7ish) I've never had anything BUT crystal clear water (except this past weekend when we had a pool party with about 30 kids, it was cloudy after that and FC read 2.0, but I added some liquid chlorine to boost my FC back to 7 and it cleared up in a day).

I generally tweak my SWG % a few times a week as the levels rise and fall. I've found water temperature to have a significant impact on chlorine levels. And obviously bather load (We have a lots of kids over often).

So my question is: with Phosphates THAT high is it having *any* effect on my SWG output? For example, if I were to bring Phosphates down to 0, would I *in theory* be able to lower my SWG % and give my cell a little longer life? Assuming I maintain my FC where it belongs relative to my CYA? Or phrased another way -- do super high phosphates have any effect on the rate at which FC is consumed, assuming theres no noticable algae outbreak and FC is properly maintained and CC is 0?

I know this is a "loaded question" around here, so apologies in advance. I searched on the topic and didn't see anything that specifically answered what I was getting at .

 

[PoolStored]

Is it worth investing in the taylor kit for phosphate ? Or should I just not waste my time?

That is a personal preference. IF you test with your own test kit, and phosphates are greater the 4000, it may be worth addressing them. Make sure to use the right remover.

Phosphate Removers - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

So my question is: with Phosphates THAT high is it having *any* effect on my SWG output? For example, if I were to bring Phosphates down to 0, would I *in theory* be able to lower my SWG % and give my cell a little longer life? Assuming I maintain my FC where it belongs relative to my CYA?

No.

 

[MichaelT20]

No.

This is what I was mostly after. So what’s the benefit of addressing phosphates? Is it *only* insurance against my not being diligent with my fc and will slow a bloom if I let my fc drop ?

 

[PoolStored]

Is it *only* insurance against my not being diligent with my fc and will slow a bloom if I let my fc drop ?

YES!!! At phos levels above 4000, algae growth can be explosive (ok, not *explosive*, but rapid)

 

[Newdude]

So what’s the benefit of addressing phosphates?

*disclaimer that I've never tested my phosphates.

Life gets in the way of poolcare for all of us. Or Mr Murphy rears his big fat stupid head. A power failure or a low salt alarm could kill your FC production for the day, and at **some point worth of phosphates**, (well into the 1000s) you could have a runaway train of an algae bloom.

I accidentally saw a hiccup this year for the first time as a 24/7 guy. I drained too much and had a big storm coming so I turned the pool off until Mother Nature fixed my goof. When I turned the pool back on, the cell failed the self check for salt due to the unmixed rainwater. Had I not caught it, the cell would have stayed off until it's next self check 12 hours later. You just KNOW that would have been the highest UV day and the FC would have already somehow been on the lower side of ok. It's a real concern for anyone who runs a pump schedule if there's a big storm on the off cycle. Not a daily concern, but easily a few times a season.

At 4000 ppb, I personally wouldn't fault you for addressing them. Get your own kit because poolstores gonna poolstore. Only use the ones listed in the Wiki because poolstores poolstore and have watered down ones to keep you coming back for more poolstoring.

 

[mknauss]

IF you do use a phosphate remover, be prepared for very cloudy water, and cleaning the filter. Multiple times. Over several days. Do NOT use the product right before a pool party or some other important pool event.

 

[MichaelT20]

IF you do use a phosphate remover, be prepared for very cloudy water, and cleaning the filter. Multiple times. Over several days. Do NOT use the product right before a pool party or some other important pool event.

Good call, I knew I had read that somewhere on one of the phosphate remover articles. Sadly we have pool events scheduled every weekend through at least the end of july at this point, so its just gonna be something that'll have to wait. Maybe I'll do it pre-close or post-open next year.

 

[Texas Splash]

I agree with all that previous comments, but I will also add that last year I encountered an event that prompted me to treat them. I did not test the elevation level, so I have no accurate data for comparisons. What was happening is my cell seemed to not be holding my FC level. Passing multiple OCLTs had me believing the cell was going bad. As a last ditch resort, I treated the water with some high octane PR I had laying around. My water did not get cloudy. The PR treatment grabbed the phosphates and I had a blanket of phosphate dust on the pool floor the next day. After that, my cell seemed to perform better and I never did return it. I say all of this cautiously because some people will interpret PR products as a fix-all for their problems when it is not. But it does appear that at a certain threshold they can be problematic. 9.9 times out of 10 a properly chlorinated TFP pool has no need for phosphate control, but there may be the odd occasion, or beneficial when the FC level has to be lowered like fire and AA treatment.

 

[Newdude]

Since i always keep my FC on the high end (Aim for 6-7ish)

I cordially invite you to join #teamrunhot. Phosphates will never cross your mind again. Storms, crazy high UV weeks or impromptu get togethers won't either.

 

[MichaelT20]

View attachment 503462


I cordially invite you to join #teamrunhot. Phosphates will never cross your mind again. Storms, crazy high UV weeks or impromptu get togethers won't either.

Fair! I definitely plan to keep it closer to 8-9 prior to the next big pool bash. That said, I watched every single parent hose their kids down with aerosol sunscreen about 15 seconds before they cannonballed into the pool, so I'm sure that played a healthy role in the cloudiness

I guess I should say I keep my numbers right in the middle of the recommended range. I'll aim a little higher going forward!

 

[Newdude]

Fair! I definitely plan to keep it closer to 8-9 prior to the next big pool bash.

For a moderate get together, I dose to half SLAM. For a blowout party, full SLAM. I'll check after and make sure there's plenty insurance FC left for residuals.

Like you said, everybody's all slathered up in sunblock, sweating and there's 18 bathing suits worth of residual laundry sauce. Plus, there's 2 kinds of kids

1) kids who pee in the pool
2) liar liar pants on fire-s.

 

[jark87]

I test for phosphates and treat them as needed. For what it’s worth, the only times I’ve had algae outbreaks were when I ignored phosphates. I keep FC in the 8-10 range and CYA at 80. My pool is surrounded by large trees, so there’s always something falling into the pool. Treating phosphates is cheap insurance for me and gives me a little peace of mind.

If you do decide to treat them, don’t bother with pool store weekly treatment stuff. It’s crazy expensive, especially for the amount of the active ingredient. Get the Orenda product.

 

[MichaelT20]

For a moderate get together, I dose to half SLAM. For a blowout party, full SLAM. I'll check after and make sure there's plenty insurance FC left for residuals.

Like you said, everybody's all slathered up in sunblock, sweating and there's 18 bathing suits worth of residual laundry sauce. Plus, there's 2 kinds of kids

1) kids who pee in the pool
2) liar liar pants on fire-s.

So true . I’ll definitely boost higher before the next blow out.

 

[RLP]

My cya is 70 and I shoot for 8.

 

[mgtfp]

As mentioned, phosphate treatment is optional, but if done then should be done with high quality phosphate removers as described in the article that PS posted.

Only time I would actually recommend phosphate removal is before lodging an SWG warranty claim. Some manufacturers are quite hung up on them and refuse to accept warranty claims when they come out and test phosphates above their accepted threshold. In the end just a convenient way for them to wiggle out of their responsibilities.

 

[Tfpoolfromthestart]

My cya is 70 and I shoot for 8.

My cya is 60 and I run my fc at 9. Here I have a 4 fc loss a day.

 

[duraleigh]

So, if you accept the fact that you need phosphates "just be be safe" or for any other reason really, then you are also accepting the fact that you are gonna' get algae. Algae occurs because of inadequate chlorine......not inadequate phosphate remover

Supposedly, less phosphates makes your algae outbreak less severe.. That way, the money you spend on your phosphate remover MAY reduce the severity of your algae but you will still need to SLAM the pool for algae.........as normal

Additionally, when you add the phosphate remover, you will probably have the side affect of murky water and the task of cleaning your filter multiple times.

None of that makes sense. Why wouldn't you spend your time and money on keeping your pool algae free to begin with? Phosphates do nothing to cause algae. it is simply food for algae. Algae food is irrelevant when there is no algae to eat it.

the only times I’ve had algae outbreaks were when I ignored phosphates.

I would suggest that when you ignored phosphates, you were also ignoring your chlorine level and allowing algae to grow in your pool because of inadequate chlorine.......not inadequate phosphate remover

That said, some still use Bioactive CYA Reducer despite repeated valid posts saying it's bogus product

Some just want to believe because the "story" is so good.........admitting the outcome doesn't fit the picture.

I believe both Phosphate Remover and CYA reducer are just more magic potions pool stores LOVE to sell you.

 

[MichaelT20]

So, if you accept the fact that you need phosphates "just be be safe" or for any other reason really, then you are also accepting the fact that you are gonna' get algae. Algae occurs because of inadequate chlorine......not inadequate phosphate remover

Supposedly, less phosphates makes your algae outbreak less severe.. That way, the money you spend on your phosphate remover MAY reduce the severity of your algae but you will still need to SLAM the pool for algae.........as normal

Additionally, when you add the phosphate remover, you will probably have the side affect of murky water and the task of cleaning your filter multiple times.

None of that makes sense. Why wouldn't you spend your time and money on keeping your pool algae free to begin with? Phosphates do nothing to cause algae. it is simply food for algae. Algae food is irrelevant when there is no algae to eat it.


I would suggest that when you ignored phosphates, you were also ignoring your chlorine level and allowing algae to grow in your pool because of inadequate chlorine.......not inadequate phosphate remover

That said, some still use Bioactive CYA Reducer despite repeated valid posts saying it's bogus product

Some just want to believe because the "story" is so good.........admitting the outcome doesn't fit the picture.

I believe both Phosphate Remover and CYA reducer are just more magic potions pool stores LOVE to sell you.

Much appreciated insight.

 

[jark87]

So, if you accept the fact that you need phosphates "just be be safe" or for any other reason really, then you are also accepting the fact that you are gonna' get algae. Algae occurs because of inadequate chlorine......not inadequate phosphate remover

Supposedly, less phosphates makes your algae outbreak less severe.. That way, the money you spend on your phosphate remover MAY reduce the severity of your algae but you will still need to SLAM the pool for algae.........as normal

Additionally, when you add the phosphate remover, you will probably have the side affect of murky water and the task of cleaning your filter multiple times.

None of that makes sense. Why wouldn't you spend your time and money on keeping your pool algae free to begin with? Phosphates do nothing to cause algae. it is simply food for algae. Algae food is irrelevant when there is no algae to eat it.


I would suggest that when you ignored phosphates, you were also ignoring your chlorine level and allowing algae to grow in your pool because of inadequate chlorine.......not inadequate phosphate remover

That said, some still use Bioactive CYA Reducer despite repeated valid posts saying it's bogus product

Some just want to believe because the "story" is so good.........admitting the outcome doesn't fit the picture.

I believe both Phosphate Remover and CYA reducer are just more magic potions pool stores LOVE to sell you.

I hear you and appreciate what you’re saying. I’d submit that algae is always in an outdoor pool at some level, especially one surrounded by heavy vegetation, as spores are naturally occurring and constantly being introduced to the water. Yes, adequate chlorine levels should kill them, at least in theory, but there’s more to the prevention of an algae bloom than just chlorine. Poor circulation, poor filtration are also factors. I don’t have a variable speed pump, so I don’t run 24x7, Who knows, maybe it was during the time water wasn’t circulating that the algae got a foothold. I do know that when I had my last outbreak, my FC was at 9 and had dropped to 6 after a couple of days, which is what alerted me to the fact that something was consuming my chlorine. Based on everything I’ve read on TFP, there’s no way I should have had an algae bloom with those levels, but I did. Maybe it was a fluke and had nothing to do with treating phosphates, but I haven’t had an outbreak since I started doing so again. I acknowledge that my experience is only anecdotal.

Regardless, the less than $50 I spend per year treating phosphates is worth it to me.

 

[duraleigh]

It's always helpful to remember that chlorine kills algae...........better than anything commonly used.

I know this is oversimplified but if you have algae, you don't have enough chlorine.