Phosphates can be a serious problem

[duraleigh]

floating,

First, welcome to the forum. We're appreciative of your input.

Like polyvue, I am not aware you can taste CYA. Can you explain that further?

The phosphates issue can be quite misleading. Chlorine kills algae better than anything else. A problematic pool will benefit from chlorine more than it will benefit from any other additive. If chlorine is adequate to begin with, the pool will not be problematic.

Phosphate removers become a moot point in a pool with adequate chlorine.....it's not as if phosphate removers are an alternative to chlorine, they simply make the conditions for algae growth less ideal.......you still need chlorine.

Algae will not grow in an adequately chlorinated pool regardless of the phosphate levels in that pool.

 

[spishex]

Keeping Chlorine in the water is number one.
if you know your overnight chlorine loss, if you test your water everyday, if you can taste a high CYA, if you why CH aint that important, etc....
you prolly keep chlorine in your pool.

so having a phosphate lvl of 2, 3, 4 thousand aint a huge deal. but for people who put cal-hypo tabs in a trichlor used feeder, who think as long as there pool is clear then they don't need chemicals, who go thru three skimmer baskets a season becuase they only empty them when they swim sober enough to remember too; then phosphates can be a serious problem.

But the big thing to remember is to KEEP CHLORINE IN YOUR POOL. period.

You're presented with a patient that is unable to distinguish between types of chlorine and the dangers of mixing them, is oblivious to the need to test water, and is usually too drunk to remember being by the pool and you're going to worry about his/her phosphate level?

 

[dschlic1]

No all living organisms in a pool are algae. There are also bacteria and mold for example. Both of which do not need phosphates to live and grow. I know from personal experience that reducing phosphate levels to zero will not prevent an "outbreak".

 

[chem geek]

Actually, all living things need phosphorous, but bacteria seem to get by on less than algae do. I don't know whether this is due to cell volume or to the specifics of the chemicals needed in the cell (algae is a plant and is more complex than bacteria). This is why phosphate reduction cannot be used as a form of sanitation. Phosphates are in the phosphate-dexoyribose backbone that makes up DNA and RNA and are also used in ATP (and related ADP and AMP) that is the main energy transfer molecule between metabolic reactions happening in different parts of the cell.

The other factor is that the phosphate removers, which are lanthanum chloride, only remove orthophosphate (PO₄^3-) and do not remove organic phosphates. Bacteria, mold, algae, etc. can utilize organic phosphates for their growth, though their rate of uptake is slower depending on the size and complexity of the organic phosphate. So while significantly lowering phosphates can slow down growth, it should be seen more like an (expensive) algaecide that inhibits growth and does not completely eliminate it. Unlike 50 ppm Borates which also somewhat inhibits algae growth, phosphate removers require repeated application if the fill water contains phosphates or if phosphates are introduced through organic material entering into the pool (i.e. leaves, etc.). Since chlorine alone can prevent both bacterial and algae growth, we don't recommend the use of phosphate removers.

Even though your phosphate test may have measured zero phosphates, I doubt they were really zero since the phosphate removers can only get orthophosphate down to somewhat under 100 ppb (the lowest with repeated application and excellent filtration would typically be around 50 ppb, but usually it's higher). The Taylor K-1106 can measure orthophosphate down to 50 ppb, but most test strips only measure down to 100 ppb at the lowest (see here). Also, as noted above, the phosphate removers don't remove organic phosphates so bacterial and algal growth can still occur even with a low orthophosphate reading on the test.

Richard

 

[Christhepoolman]

I've personally cleaned up 10+ green (like a frog pond) pools in the last year or so. Many of them were foreclosed homes, others just had been mistreated by the former pool maintenance personnel. In the most recent of my experiences, we were dealing with a roughly 18 x 9 pool with raised spa, green as can be.

Had a Pentair WhisperFlo 1HP (now a IntelliFlo VF), CCP 320 SF filter, IC20 SWC, MasterTemp 400 heater, and Easy Touch automation.

Anyway, I treated this pool with 2 gallons of liquid chlorine (the commercial stuff), and 10 oz. of a product called Orenda PR-10000. The very next day, after 24 hours of filtering, the pool was crystal clear blue. I cleaned the filter, checked the FC again and added one more gallon. Cleaned the salt cell, brought the salt level up to 3500ppm, and it's been just beautiful ever since.

What I am getting at is that (in my area, at least) phosphates are an issue. Big time. The Orenda is the best stuff I've ever used and has helped immensely more times than I can count on both hands.

 

[duraleigh]

Hi, Chris,

Welcome to the forum.

One of the prime tenants of BBB we promote here is that "magic bullets" don't exist. You seem to be ascribing that quality to this Orenda 1000 product. I'm not buying in.

There are quite lengthy discussions about phosphates in several areas on this forum and most of them lead us to the conclusion that the product you suggest or any other single product normally has little bearing on cleaning up a green, swampy pool.

Your 24 hour transformation is indeed remarkable but most people here find that process takes quite a bit more diligence. patience and understanding than buying a box of whatever magic ingredient may be in stock at the pool store

 

[spishex]

I've personally cleaned up 10+ green (like a frog pond) pools in the last year or so. Many of them were foreclosed homes, others just had been mistreated by the former pool maintenance personnel. In the most recent of my experiences, we were dealing with a roughly 18 x 9 pool with raised spa, green as can be.

Had a Pentair WhisperFlo 1HP (now a IntelliFlo VF), CCP 320 SF filter, IC20 SWC, MasterTemp 400 heater, and Easy Touch automation.

Anyway, I treated this pool with 2 gallons of liquid chlorine (the commercial stuff), and 10 oz. of a product called Orenda PR-10000. The very next day, after 24 hours of filtering, the pool was crystal clear blue. I cleaned the filter, checked the FC again and added one more gallon. Cleaned the salt cell, brought the salt level up to 3500ppm, and it's been just beautiful ever since.

What I am getting at is that (in my area, at least) phosphates are an issue. Big time. The Orenda is the best stuff I've ever used and has helped immensely more times than I can count on both hands.

Did you test the water to begin with? Any idea what the CYA level was?

I don't know how deep that pool is, but assuming a 4' average you're dealing with just under 5000 gallons. That means those two gallons of chlorine got you somewhere between 40 and 50 ppm FC. That will kill a lot of green, and depending on the CYA level it could do it very, very quickly.

It looks to me like the only green spot that PR-10000 (at$135/pint ) will get rid of faster than chlorine is the one in the middle of the homeowner's wallet.

 

[chem geek]

From the MSDS, the Orenda PR-10000 phosphate remover appears to primarily contain lanthanum chloride (note under toxicity data the acute oral effects as 100% LaCl₃). The pH is low for the product and the thermal oxidative decomposition can produce fumes of hydrogen chloride (i.e. hydrochloric acid) and metal oxides. This is consistent with lanthanum chloride because it hydrolyzes in water to produce lanthanum hydroxide and hydrochloric acid, thereby lowering the pH (or alternatively, putting lanthanum chloride into an acidic water solution can make it less likely to form lathanum hydroxide) and with heat this can produce lanthanum oxide which is a metal oxide.

Since the mixture is proprietary, it could also contain an effective clarifier, usually some form of cationic polymer, that would aid in the clearing of a pool. As sphisex pointed out, a very high level of chlorine will clear a pool rather quickly since it will oxidize the algae more quickly so it's hard to know whether the Orenda product helped accelerate that clearing -- the lanthanum chloride alone (i.e. the phosphate remover) would not speed up the clearing by itself. All it can do is slow down algae growth, but chlorine does that as well.

[EDIT] As for pricing, the $136 link posted above is actually for a gallon, not a pint. At Steve the Pool Man it's $19 for a pint, $31 for a quart and $98 for a gallon. Since one quart removes 10,000 ppb phosphate from 10,000 gallons, it's more cost effective than Natural Chemistry Phos Free products including Phos Free Commercial. The appropriate FC/CYA ratio will prevent algae growth, but if one really wants a phosphate remover, then the PR-10000 product is cost effective. [END-EDIT]

Chris, have you ever tried just adding the massive amounts of chlorine to the pool (as you did), but without the Orenda product to see what would happen? If you did, could you describe it? Did it kill the algae, but in a slower process of clearing that looks more like this and took about 3-4 days to get to crystal clear?

Richard

 

[teapot]

Happy new year to every one.
I have to agree with Richard, it's the chlorine and clarifying polymer doing the work. I was handing out phosphate remover to some of my customers last year so I could carry out some comparisons. The pools treated with and subsequently low phosphate levels did fair better during the August algae bloom. In the case of the over stabilised pools (end of season multitab dosed) where there was very little available chlorine none of the low phosphate pools showed any sign of algae outbreak.

Without going back over old ground keeping the chlorine level at the recommended level is the most important part but anything that helps a regional problem ( most of our pools are in amongst farm land) is not wrong. Two companies that retail "natural swimming ponds" either remove as much phosphate as possible or as much nitrates as possible and only use plants that can tolerate the given situations. Keeping the water moving is also very important as this energy helps prevent growth. In the case of Dr Dryden he is now utilising a microwave magnetron and static shear mixer to aid the sterilisation of water and achieves a high redox potential of around 800mv allied to his some kind of catalytic polymer, all very new and exciting. Hope to have lunch again with Dr Dryden in February when I can find out more.
http://www.drydenaqua.com/chemicals...ulants/aco/acd active catalytic oxidation.htm

 

[duraleigh]

A primary goal at TFP is to maintain our swimming pools with the simplest, least expensive methods. As a sanitizer and algae preventor, chlorine fills that requirement better than anything else.

Money spent on phosphate removers that are not necessary to begin with is money that could be better spent on adequate chlorine and, importantly, a very good stock of the adult beverage of your choice.

I have my hands over my ears so I cannot hear any suggestions the adult beverage may not be necessary, either! :lol:

 

[chem geek]

teapot,

The Active Catalytic Oxidation (ACO) looks interesting. Of course, he's mostly selling systems in Europe where the German DIN 19643 standard for residential/public pools is sometimes used so that pools have 0.3 to 0.6 ppm FC with no CYA in them. Therefore, having some protection from the UV in sunlight would help to reduce chlorine usage, though that same standard also goes through an active carbon filter that essentially removes all chloramines AND chlorine on each pass so chlorine is reinjected. So it is not surprising that replacing this with an AFM/ACO system would reduce chlorine usage substantially, especially when the bather load wasn't very high.

It's also interesting that Dr. Dryden says that UV, including that from sunlight, tends to break down chloramines, but produces more THMs as a result. When you see him, ask which chloramines are affected in this way -- monochloramine, dichloramine, nitrogen trichloride. I know that nitrogen trichloride is very sensitive to UV and that with strong UV lamps the other chloramines are also broken down, but I don't know how quickly monochloramine or dichloramine are broken down in sunlight. Also, ask him about chlorine/CYA since CYA will also shield the water from the UV in sunlight at various depths and also combines with chlorine to significantly lower the hypochlorous acid concentration. This should significantly lower the nitrogen trichloride concentration, though the steady-state monochloramine and dichloramine will be higher as a result. The net effect on THMs is unknown.

I know I've said this before, but it is worth repeating. Phosphate removers should be seen in the same vein as supplemental algaecides or even borates. They all help take the edge off of algae growth, but do not always completely eliminate it (depending on specific conditions). Since one needs chlorine anyway for sanitation and oxidation of bather waste (unless one uses an expensive non-chlorine oxidizer), one can use chlorine alone to prevent algae growth as well. The only reason to use the other supplements (at additional cost) is either as insurance in case the chlorine level gets too low or if one is unwilling to maintain the appropriate FC/CYA ratio (say, from continued use of stabilized chlorine). The borates are a one-time dose to 50 ppm and also provide pH buffering so would be another option you might try on some of your over-stabilized pools (ones that have not yet been treated with phosphate removers so would normally get algae late in the season).

Richard

 

[lmeyer55]

Hi all....Just wanted to share my experience with phosphates and algae...which backs up some of the main points in this thread.

I had a recurring algae problem over course of 2 yrs. I spent oodles of dollars on borates etc, shocking. But if I was neglectful just one week, BAM....the algae was back. This last time I killed the algae, then treated for phosphates. And now religiously keep my automatic cholorinator supplied, and have not had a problem since. I am so delighted.

I retested my phosphate levels this week, and while they were around 1000, no chlorine problems tho -- that was spot on, and no algae in sight. Will keep adding a little phosphate reducer weekly after a round with Revive, and hopefully this will keep everything in harmony.

BTW my water is sparkly looking once I did the phosphate treatment. The water temp is 92 (it's a Texas summer afterall), and this year I have had a terrible problem with a tallow tree losing leaves into the pool -- not sure why but I'm sure it's not helping the situation.

 

[bk406]

What do you use to chlorinate your pool? what is your stabilizer levels? My guess is your algea pproblems have more to do with an over stabilized pool and inadequate chlorine. Phosphate removers may work as a band aid to the actual problem of an over stabilized pool. If a pool has a proper FC/CYA ratio, phospshates are irrelevent.

 

[teapot]

Yes I hope Imeyer returns with some information as this is an interesting subject.

 

[Darkside of the Pool]

[EDIT] Dang... have to look at the dates of other posts... sorry about this one.[/end EDIT]

Another problem with phosphate removers is the high pressure sales tactics used by some pool stores. Many pool stores insist that anyone with phosphate levels above 100 or so is doomed. People who are exposed to this constant marketing pressure often have difficulty understanding just how throughly they have been mislead. Trying to counter this pressure is where some of the more extreme anti-phosphate remover statements come from.

(...)

Another problem with phosphate remover is that it distracts people from what is actually important. Algae is not, in and of it's self, a health problem. Algae is a problem because it lowers the FC level very quickly. Clear, algae free, water is not always safe to swim in. It is critical for health reasons to maintain an appropriate FC level. Phosphate remover marketing tends to obscure that fact, and suggest that preventing algae is the only goal.

Amen to that, especially the part in bold. Realizing you've been BS'ed for a great deal of your life by ''Chemists'' and ''Sales representatives'' from chemical companies makes some of my colleagues very very resistant to a change in methods... The worst part is realizing you've been as truthful as you could have been but to realize you were still BS'ing.

And scrapping layer after layer is a pain, you have no idea. It froment distrust as you solve problems they cannot and they refuse to see the truth as it shatters their self-esteem. Can't blame them. Can't BS either. Causes conflicts...

 

[mikehara]

There seems to be some confusion as to water sanitation and algae. You can have high chlorine (sanitary water) content and still have algae. I've witnessed it. Many people I know have had algae issues and I have recommended the use of phosphate removers and it worked for them as well. The use of phophate removers is something I've done for years along with keeping an acceptable chlorine level in my water. The two are not related in methods of pool maintenance. I have always used Phos-free, but have just purchased a bottle of PR-10,000 and will be trying it today. I'm told by the pool store that it is more effective as related to the quantity needed to perform the same task.
Also, since I've been using phospate remover, my chlorine cost has dropped dramatically. I bought a 30 lb. bucket of shock the spring of '09 and still have 20 lb. left. I buy a 35 lb bucket of 3" tabs every year. When I first bought the house, I was going through 5 lb. of shock every week.

 

[teapot]

Also, since I've been using phospate remover, my chlorine cost has dropped dramatically. I bought a 30 lb. bucket of shock the spring of '09 and still have 20 lb. left. I buy a 35 lb bucket of 3" tabs every year. When I first bought the house, I was going through 5 lb. of shock every week.

Mike welcome to the forum,
the key to your statement is the use of shock and tabs which both contain cyanuric acid which over time build up to such a level there isn't very much active chlorine available although you may well be able to measure free chlorine it's mostly bound to cyanuric acid and takes longer to un-bind than algae takes to multiply.

It's your first post but we have discussed the subject so often and by reading the many posts on the subject you can learn why you do not normally need phosphate remover. Chiefly because phosphate remover only removes orthophosphate and not organic phosphates which are utilised along with nitrates as a source of food for the algae.

Do you have any figures of the reduction in chlorine that you directly had from using phosphate removers and do you have a set of complete water figures for your pool as it is always interesting to observe.

 

[Ohm_Boy]

There seems to be some confusion as to water sanitation and algae. You can have high chlorine (sanitary water) content and still have algae. I've witnessed it. Many people I know have had algae issues and I have recommended the use of phosphate removers and it worked for them as well. The use of phophate removers is something I've done for years along with keeping an acceptable chlorine level in my water. The two are not related in methods of pool maintenance. I have always used Phos-free, but have just purchased a bottle of PR-10,000 and will be trying it today. I'm told by the pool store that it is more effective as related to the quantity needed to perform the same task.
Also, since I've been using phospate remover, my chlorine cost has dropped dramatically. I bought a 30 lb. bucket of shock the spring of '09 and still have 20 lb. left. I buy a 35 lb bucket of 3" tabs every year. When I first bought the house, I was going through 5 lb. of shock every week.

So, you'd drink water with algae in it? After all, you say it's sanitary, right?
This is cr@p. If your chlorine won't kill algae, it cannot be relied upon to kill anything. If you have "high chlorine" (note: no numbers given) and have algae, you have another problem - most likely high CYA, which is rendering your chlorine ineffective.

Calling a chlorine level "acceptable" without knowing (and taking into account) the CYA level is like adding "enough" fuel to a vehicle without knowing the type of vehicle or what trip it is supposed to make. A cup will likely do for getting a snowmobile back home, but it won't even crank a semi truck.

 

[dmanb2b]

There seems to be some confusion as to water sanitation and algae. You can have high chlorine (sanitary water) content and still have algae. I've witnessed it. Many people I know have had algae issues and I have recommended the use of phosphate removers and it worked for them as well. The use of phophate removers is something I've done for years along with keeping an acceptable chlorine level in my water. The two are not related in methods of pool maintenance. I have always used Phos-free, but have just purchased a bottle of PR-10,000 and will be trying it today. I'm told by the pool store that it is more effective as related to the quantity needed to perform the same task.
Also, since I've been using phospate remover, my chlorine cost has dropped dramatically. I bought a 30 lb. bucket of shock the spring of '09 and still have 20 lb. left. I buy a 35 lb bucket of 3" tabs every year. When I first bought the house, I was going through 5 lb. of shock every week.

Welcome to TFP Hate to say this, but you're wasting your money. How much have you spent on phos-free or PR 10000 vs your savings on chlorine? 1st you have to define "high" chlorine, what ppm level are you talking about vs your CYA level?

They key here is your level of active chlorine and chances are your pool has too much CYA...aka overstabilized. Post a full set of test results and we'll show you how to save money on chlorine without having to worry about phosphates

Shocking a pool is rarely needed if you keep up with your water chemistry.

 

[bk406]

I believe Mike is selling PR-10,000. Can we say troll